A Conversation with Amanda Thebe, Author of "Menopocalypse"

This week on the Menopause Uprising Podcast we have Amanda Thebe! Amanda is a Fitness and Women’s Health Expert and author of the best-selling book "Menopocalypse," boasts nearly 30 years of industry experience. Amanda is also Canada’s first menopause workplace educator, normalising conversations around menopause and supporting female employees.

You can find out more about Amanda HERE

Follow her on Instagram HERE

Menopocalypse book HERE

Transcript -Automatically Generated

Welcome to this week's episode of Menopause Uprising with me, your host Catherine O'Keeffe. So where is Ireland on the platform in relation to menopause in the workplace and how are our counterparts in Canada doing? Today I'm thrilled to chat to my lovely friend Amanda Thieb who is a huge advocate of menopause globally and is now flying the flag in Canada of raising awareness of menopause across society and also in workplaces.

We talk about many aspects of menopause and, you know, how you can support yourself through these years. Also, check out the show notes for links to Amanda and where you can follow her. I hope you enjoy the episode. Thank you. So Amanda, is it safe to say, and you can shoot me if I'm saying this wrong, no offence intended, but is it safe to say that Ireland is ahead of menopause in the workplace compared to Canada?

I think that's fair. I think in general, a UK have led the way and then you've been like champion Ireland, literally single handedly for a couple of years, there's other people doing it now. You were very much instrumental in me. Doing workplace talks. We had, um, you gave me some counseling sessions. If you remember, right, what happened is I got the opportunity to do a couple of talks.

And I was like, wow, they, I was approached to do them actually for British companies online. And then, you know, the momentum built and I know that I am one of the first. A few people doing them over here in Canada and it really took off last year. Like in October, I think I did like 16, 18 talks, um, in the workplace, virtually or in person.

It's hard doing in person talks in Canada. It's the second biggest country in the world. It's huge. It's, it's not always very practical to be in person, but it's really been, it's really taken off. Menopause has kicked off over here now. Yeah, for sure. And do you think that is like, when the way I look at it is, I would definitely say the UK is kind of, you know, has led the, the, the way.

And I certainly think from a European perspective, Ireland is very much now up there in terms of, uh, you know, bringing that awareness, um, in the work, in the workplace. And, you know, a lot of other countries are starting to look, but I think when I look at North America, I think certainly the work that you are doing in Canada, that's even ahead of the U.

S., isn't it? Because I know I've done some talks myself in the U. S., but they seem to be streets behind. Yeah, I don't, I don't see a lot there. There's some great organizations. There's one called Let's Talk Menopause that are doing, um, awareness campaigns and stuff. But I do North, I do North America. So I do Canada and America.

Yeah. It's like, it's about halfy half for me. Um, and usually the American ones are virtual. I actually like doing the American ones because I get paid in U. S. dollars. I mean, I'm joking, but I mean, this is a job, so I expect to get paid. You know, um, it's really interesting because, you know, I've seen the momentum, I've seen the way it grows.

And I think that, you know, there's a lot of, Um, medical people will do talk, talks. I've seen those in the workplace, but what it's really interesting is that I, so here's what I'm trying to say. Recently I did one, and this is funny, in a province called New Brunswick. New Brunswick is the only bilingual province.

province in Canada. And what that means is whenever they do a presentation or a talk, they have to have a French speaking, um, presenter with an English. So I did this virtual one that was also in person. It was like, you know, a bit of a mixed bag, a hybrid one. And, uh, the first person that came on was a doctor.

And she was an OBGYN very well respected French speaking OBGYN. And she went into this very technical talk for about an hour. And at the, and I was reading the chat and people were like, well, I don't even understand French, but you know, in this is, it was, and then I did mine. And I did mine as like you as a non medical menopause educator and advocate and.

Anything I said that was medical was a literal verbatim of the medical position statement. You know, I don't cross any lines, just like you. And, um, uh, the feedback that I got was, um, much. Much better than I expected. And I think it was because a lot of people don't need to know, like, and this is the medication you take from this.

And this is the med, they just were like, what is it? What do I do? What are the practical sides of it? And I think that that's why it's working because we're going in and we're talking to women saying, listen, we're not asking. You to, um, we're not trying to diminish anything you've tried to achieve in the decades of getting to the top of your game.

What we're trying to do is to build awareness, give you support, give you the tools to advocate for yourself so that the workplace experience is better and more productive. Um, and, and I think that that's a unique way of talking about menopause. And I think you're right. I think I guess for anyone, you probably, we probably need all the little pieces of the puzzle, all the bits of information to bring it all together.

But I think sometimes overwhelm is very common in menopause. I'd see that a lot, particularly in the workplace. So I think sometimes when you can just come in with the clarity behind it and where people can understand the, options that they have. I think that brings a lot of relief for women in the workplace, particularly, particularly those women who, like you say, have been in the workplace for a long time and maybe you've never had a challenge or a struggle before.

And now all of a sudden, menopause is presenting New challenges and Amanda, would you, I would, you know, I would have the similar symptoms that would come up in the workplace here. I'm presuming it's the same in Canada. Would you find that brain fog is the kind of the number one symptom that women would report as impacting in their work in Canada and, you know, North America in general?

Yeah, in North America, I would say the cognitive issues that come with menopause definitely are the, are up there as well as the hot, hot flashes, flushes, um, like they definitely are things that like women bring up all the time. Um, what's really interesting and, and actually, and just not feeling themselves, you know, not, not recognizing themselves, but actually what's really interesting, um, is, you know, I just want to go back to what you said about clarity.

I think there's always a risk of doing these workplace talks and giving too much information, trying to share everything that you know. And you and I both wrote books on this. We don't need to share the whole book. We need to give. As enough information so that women feel empowered. One of the things I've really taken from these workplace talks, and obviously, you know, you learn as you go along and you find your groove and you find the message that resonates and et cetera, et cetera.

But what, one of the things I find to be the most impactful is when, um, female executives. You know, CEOs, CFOs, whatever, head of HR, uh, are involved in the talks that I do. And so they usually do like an introduction, probably the same for you. They're usually the ones that are pulling this together, which I'm very happy to see, and then sharing their stories and saying, you know, I was in a meeting and I forgot words, or I had a hot flash, or I just didn't want to come in today.

I just felt so terrible and I didn't know what to do. And that, I don't think that. These executives realize how powerful that is, that they show vulnerability with their strength. And, and then I see the whole room change. I see the whole room change and people go, well, if it's okay for her to talk about it, then I will too.

And all of a sudden the big taboo and stigma that goes with menopause in the workplace diminishes completely. Yeah, I think that's so true. I've seen that on so many occasions where you'll have someone, um, and I think it can be anyone. Sharing their story, but it definitely lends more weight when it's a C suite executive who's kind of sharing the story, because opening up to that vulnerability is like, oh my god, really?

And because a lot of people will perceive, like I know for me, Amanda, when I was a director in the bank, I can tell you, nobody Realized or saw the issues that I was having with brain fog, because, and I would say, and I know when I've talked to people about it, they're like, God, you'd never have known, you know, but it's a bit like the duck, the analogy of the duck, you know, you look nice and calm, you know, on, on, on the lake or the river or whatever, but underneath you're, you're paddling furiously to try and keep up and to try and keep everything going.

Right. Yes, exactly that. And I think that, you know, Putting this mask on and making, like putting a brave face on doesn't help anyone, but it's also, I think it probably was more, when I talk to women, I feel like it's more that it's actually coping strategies, isn't it? It's like, cause a lot of, a lot of these feelings that women get and these symptoms that get a transient, right.

They're not here to stay. So what can you do to make, uh, your day successful, to make your job successful, to feel like you're actually contributing, et cetera. Um, and so I understand why people would say, well, I never saw that part of you, but I wonder whether part of you wishes you'd said to someone, yeah, you know what, I'm struggling a bit and, and, and it's nothing to be ashamed of.

Yeah, I think if I, if I was back there now, I'd have it, I'd have it up on a whiteboard. You know, I think if I was back there, hindsight's a great thing. If I was back there now, I certainly, you know, I think I would be more confident to discuss it. But, but remember when I started perimenopause, nobody was talking about perimenopause.

All we were hearing about was menopause and hot flushes. There was very little talk in Ireland at that stage about perimenopause, and I think obviously it's my own kind of journey. That led me to start, to, to, to start talking about it. But, you know, I think, look, we've been lucky here with the work that a lot of workplaces are, are doing around policy and so forth and the work the government are doing.

But are you starting to see anything happening in Canada at the government level in relation to the workplace? No, not really. Um, but, you know, um, I, um, work closely with the, uh, uh, Organization called the menopause foundation of Canada. And we've been in talks about trying to sort of emulate the work that Diane Danza Brink has been doing with the menopause support network.

Um, um, she to me is the definite, definite thought leader in this area. And I know that she had. Very clear, strategic, um, changes that she wanted in place. And the Canadian government, um, structure is very similar to the British parliament structure. Like the U S is completely different system altogether, but there's, you know, the, they would be ways to.

to sort of, um, mimic some of the work Diane's done. And so that's something that I'm going to start having conversations about. I know there's other organizations trying to make change, but I, I feel like sometimes, um, I don't always like the way they're looking to make policy change. Um, you know, there's a, there's an organization called the Menopause Mandate in the UK.

And I was watching the work they're doing. Um, and I sometimes think that, um, the way we make. Change in the way we approach things matters. And just having angry soundbites on social media to me is like, it's like pissing in the wind, like shooting into the void. And I don't think it really achieves anything.

Um, and, and I don't want to like talk about like women being angry and frustrated, um, in a negative way because it usually that propels us forward to make change. But you want to present yourself in a really respectful way in a, in a professional way, and I know that Diane does that and I really respect her, her strategy for doing that.

So if I'm going to do anything, I think it would be along those lines. And I know that, um, I'm pretty well connected over here in Canada. And so I think I can, Be part of the, the movement to help change happen. Um, and the three policies that Diane was looking to change and same in Ireland is workplace, policy, education, and healthcare education, right?

And to me, they're the three big rocks that are easy to sort of make very simple change that will have big impacts. And I definitely, um, we were talking off camera. Um, uh, about social media, both of us are very frustrated with it. It's not a very nice place. A lot of the time, even though we try to keep the, you know, the, the information we put out there very sane and practical and blah, blah, blah.

But, um, I feel like I can do more work behind the scenes now. That's where I feel like I can make impact. And honestly, for me, I think that that feels better too. Yeah, I, I, I, I get that and I think there's a few things there, but I think in relation to the social media, it's kind of like to me, what I do on social media, that's only a dip in the pond to what I'm doing every day, you know, and it's kind of like the real world.

meat of it, I guess I look at is the work that I'm doing in workplaces and communities on a daily basis. That's really where, you know, and the way I look at that, that's, you know, social media, I guess, like, look, it's, it's, it's, it works in, in, In some ways it works brilliantly and in other ways it doesn't and I think, you know, when you mentioned there about putting out negative soundbites, all that does is it gets a bit of traction and it's momentarily and it's for what, for, there's no end goal there and I think, like going back to it.

I agree. Diane, the three key aims, like, you know, we've done a huge amount here in Ireland in relation to the medical treatment of menopause. We've yet to get it in colleges for, in terms of training. As for education, that's been requested so many times, it's still there. I think, you know, It will happen but I think it's not high on the agenda but the workplace is definitely happening and at the kind of the government level as well which I, which I think is great.

So I think we're probably, I think this year we'll probably see more in relation to menopause in the workplace in Ireland, uh, which I think, yeah. And I think that's, that's, uh, you know, I'm really excited for that. So, and, and, and what I would say on that, um, um, is that I think it's really important to clarify what we're trying to achieve with workplace talks because, um, I read this article and it was a horrible article, right?

But it's definitely worth talking about and it was a woman in, um, Australia saying, all these women mourning and complaining about menopause. What you're doing is you're setting back the movement for women. You're not helping. And I just was like, well, you're completely missing the point. because it's exactly the opposite.

And you and I invite men to the conversation too, so that this is a company wide conversation. And what we're actually doing is empowering women and giving them information because there's a massive knowledge gap. Um, and one of the things that happened over here at the end of last year, Is a report was issued by this menopause foundation of Canada.

It's an advocacy group. They don't get paid any money. They, they receive funding to be able to do a massive survey about workplace in Canada, and the numbers that they pulled up were crazy. 3.9 billion is lost in work. Workplace, um, in the economy based on untreated symptoms. Um, and you know, the, the, the numbers that they put out there were actually shocking to me, and I've been talking about this for like eight, nine years now, like you, and, um, so.

If we know that there's a financial impact, if there's a cost and burden on not talking about menopause in the workplace, well, that's easily easy for us to rectify. And then we can give workplaces, um, educational resources and tools and solutions and get them to have like somebody who's allocated in HR to be able to, to, to teach them.

Listen to women's conversations and say, Hey, listen, I can give you the resources to help you find the help you need. And, you know, and I think that when you offer solutions, you're not putting anybody's movement back at all. You're actually empowering women. Totally. Yeah. And like, I mean, what we don't want to do is go Annie, we never want to go backward on this conversation.

We've opened the leaves. So now it needs to be to, to, to really progress it so that, you know, I kind of look at younger women coming up and I just kind of think, God, by the time they get to their forties, fifties in the workplace, it's going to be a dream. You know, that's certainly the hope that you're looking for because there will be like a lot of the companies I work with would have just some amazing.

Wellbeing programs that will, you know, have great supports in relation to menopause. And one thing that I did a lot of work on last year was menopause champion training. Like that, where you say, you know, a key person in HR or wherever it is, who's a dedicated, that some people can go to because like, you know, sometimes your manager may not be the first person that you want to talk to, you know, it's going to be very individual, you know, in terms of whether.

You feel comfortable or not. So I think it's, it's making sure that there's, um, that the support is there, but I think the support has to be in different guises, um, as well. Yeah, for sure. For absolute sure. Um, one of the things as well that I try and do in the workplace is to try and give a very balanced overview of what menopause care looks like.

Um, and I know this is something you and I talk about all the time. Um, and, um, And it, it actually happened because I did a talk in the UK where somebody approached me and said, will you come in and do a workplace talk for menopause online? It was with the police service. I was like, yeah, yeah, yeah. Sure. No problem.

And they said, cause we had one last month and we didn't like it. And I was like, Oh, that's really odd. And what happened is the person came in and they were a representative of a private clinic in the UK. And all they spoke about was hormone replacement therapy. It was all that they spoke about. And at the end of it, there was women there and even gentlemen whose wives could never take hormone therapy going, well, What are we supposed to do?

It left gaps. And so what I try and do, and I know you do too, when I do these talks is to say, you know, this is the definition. This is your one on one. This is what menopause is. These are the current non treatment options. Well, these are the symptoms and these are the current non treatment options. That may help these symptoms and they can be hormonal, non hormonal, they can be non pharmaceutical, right?

It really depends on you and you need to know the options exist. Um, and I think that what I'm trying to do is, we all have our biases, but I'm trying to remove. The heavy binary conversations that I see exist, and I think that's why social media pisses me off so much. It's very binary, isn't it? Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. No, like, totally. Like, the way I look at it, Amanda, like, I think I just see myself as a conduit. I'm just. passing the information. And I do like to think that I'm very unbiased because I'm just giving the facts. And like you, I am very, very clear about sticking to the medical guidances from the British Menopause Society, the international, et cetera, because I think that's where the confusion and lack of clarity comes up for so many people where you have people on social media or wherever stating things that.

aren't, uh, you know, backed up by, are endorsed by any of the, the, the menopause, um, uh, society. So I think that is, that is really, really important. And I think too, we've, a huge part for me is respect around menopause. And I think, where, when we talk about the management options, The scenario you just explained, that's happened to me, I think three or four times now I've gone into companies, I've been asked to do talks because there has been an issue, um, of some respect in relation to the information that's been disseminated.

And I think that is why it's so important. I mean, we, we love choice. Humans love choice and I think it's really important that it's choice around your management options of menopause. If I said to you, um, Amanda, you can't go to the gym. You've only got to run. You've no choice. You know, I'd hate that. I'd hate the restriction of it.

So you try, you know, when it comes to management options, We got to realize like there's billions of women going through menopause are, you know, will go through menopause and it's, everyone's going to have a different journey. So what works for one won't work for the other. And I think that's a really, really important part of the conversation.

And I even feel in Ireland, I don't, we're definitely, we've very much gone one sided on that conversation. It has become quite medical, which makes me become even more determined to just make sure it's a very balanced view when I do talks, because, you know, people aren't getting the full details, the full size of the story.

And I always use a really good example is you open a newspaper, you go onto a website and it's like, you know, for example, now it could be I started acupuncture, it could be I started HRT, 24 hours later, I felt amazing. That is not the norm. Okay. It is not the norm, but if you know, when you see that out there, you might think, Oh my God, what's wrong with me?

That didn't happen to me, you know? So I think it's, you can apply that to anything in life. I mean, think about the diet world, right? It's exactly the same as that. Yeah. Like, and so you've got to find your own way, but you can only find your own way if you have all of the pieces of the puzzle for sure. Um, and so, yeah, I, I've definitely found that that's one of the things that Canada hasn't fallen prey to yet because we're a little bit behind.

Um, honestly in the conversation, I haven't seen that heavy bias yet. And that, and I think that that might be because the people that are doing the talking of, uh, don't have a huge financial, um, Bias behind them or like companies behind them. That's what, that's what I'm seeing. Um, and we've got some really great doctors who work for Canada Health, um, being real, um, amazing spokespeople.

But again, it's in it, I feel like it's in its infancy, even though it's, it's getting, it's getting traction. Um, and I'm happy to be involved in, in this change for sure. I think that will be interesting because I know Diane looks at us, looks at Ireland and she's like, is it kind of smirking? Yeah, we've been there, you know, so I think that it would be interesting now to see how other countries fare.

Is that what you're doing? That's what I'm doing. I am. I'm just kind of, I'm just wondering, you know, when we talk, you know, you know, we talk again in another two years, I just wonder, will it have come on more? And I wonder, you know, like when I've. I've spoken to a doctor, I actually one in the U S and I said to her, I've noticed your message has changed to be very, very pro HRT and you've, you don't feel, I don't feel like you have the, the balance that you had before.

And she's somebody I know, and it wasn't going to be taken the wrong way. And she said, well, it's because women are still being denied access to HRT. And it's because women are still scared of HRT. And it's still because there's only a very small uptake, women are choosing not to, not to take it because that, you know, they're, they're frightened of the long term consequences.

And I agree with all of those things, right? I think that that is still the case, but that doesn't mean that you can't have a well balanced conversation. Right. And so, um, and so I think that, When people do like push the message, there's probably a reason behind it. And I think it's okay to say it to them.

Well, you know, what about all of the women with breast cancer that can be like, let's just stop ignoring people. Right. Yeah. But when, when, when maybe these doctors are only seeing the ones that are coming to them, the, who are desperate, who are that 25 percent with super severe symptoms. Yeah. You know, maybe that's all they're seeing.

And so it might not be a bias. It might just be just the selection criteria that they're working with. Right. Um, so I sort of get it as well. Um, and, um, but I still think that we can still keep banging, banging the drum and saying, look, we're the women who are, this is impacting and we have a community and we can hear all the voices.

Yeah. Yeah. One of the, one of the, um, podcast sessions that I've done for this season was with Vikram in the UK, uh, and with a focus on, um, menopause after cancer. And I really felt, you know, massive refreshing. Insights and also views in relation to how women can support themselves. And I think that's the message we have to get out there.

You know, that there is light at the end of the tunnel, particularly if you've already gone through the challenges of cancer, that, you know, you're not just left out there on your own, that there, there is support. There's definitely a bit more happening in that space in Ireland now, which it needs to be because our history around that will be very negative in terms of, you know, women just left and, you know, not having an understanding of, of kind of the, the surgical induced menopause and, and, and things like that.

So, you know, that's another good change that, you know, more needs to happen, but at least it's, it's, it's starting. Yeah, that's great. That's great to hear. Yeah. Amanda, just in relation to policies, do you, uh, do you see, is there any of the workplaces or that are bringing in menopause policies, um, in Canada?

Um, I don't know that that's really happening yet, but what, the way our medical system works is a little bit different to the NHS. It is, uh, A social welfare system, you know, like it's, our medical system is free for people, but you can, we also, people also can have insurance and most people do have, um, statistically some type of health insurance, usually through workplace, right?

And then what that allows, um, workplaces to do is to give, um, People may need to go see a dietician or a personal trainer or, um, physiotherapist, pelvic health physiotherapist, right? So well, workplace wellbeing can really be helpful for menopausal women. And so what I know is starting to happen is. You know, you can start to see the, the conversation in the heads of these companies is like, okay, then we need to, we need to allow like funding to be available for women, to be able to have access to these different.

Solutions that may or may not be helpful to them moving forward. Um, but that's about as all, all as I've seen right now, um, I haven't seen any actual policy change in place, but because of this significant study that was done last year, that got a lot of headlines, um, like I'm now speaking to, um, you Company heads that are like saying, okay, we know that this is a burden on our company.

What can we do? And so I think it's only a matter of time before those changes, you know, come into play. But isn't, isn't that great though, that that's happened, that that's kind of, you know, it's, it's opened the, it's opened the doors for discussion, which is hugely, hugely important. And I wonder one thing that comes up a lot here, and I find it quite a kind of a.

The controversial aspect of menopause in the workplace is around the workplace leave, whether there should be additional specific menopause leave in the workplace. And that's something that, um, it, it, it, it gets a lot of discussion. Um, here, but, uh, I think, you know, there's pros and cons to it, uh, you know, but it, you know, I'd just be interested to see whether that's something that comes up for you in Canada as well.

Yeah. So, you know, when I do, when I do my presentations, I, I talk about Potential solutions in the workplace that can happen. And I talk about hybrid working, right? Hybrid working. We did, we've all done. We did it in COVID. We had no choice. We know that that works. Um, and, and I, I talk about what other companies have done.

And so I, I, I, I do tread carefully because I don't want to sort of say, and this is what you're working for. They should be doing when they may never happen. Right. Um, but I talk about what other companies have done. Um, And in the UK, there was that company whose name escapes me right now that, um, allowed 10 days, no questions asked, leave to women and their spouses or partners based on, um, their menopause symptoms.

And the reason I put their spouses in is probably because they needed to take the kids to school or something, right? You know, like it's that type of thing. Um, and, and, and I, I believe that that's been a successful policy because. Let's face it, women do not take advantage of those things. They're not just going to take these days if they don't need them, they'll take them when they do need them.

And I think that that's something that I'd like to sort of like reiterate is that we're not going to try and abuse any solutions that go out there. Women. Go to work. They want to do well, but if they're not feeling optimal and can't like be productive and efficient in their workplace, there has to be something that the workplace does to make that, um, tip for a solution to make that happen.

And, and whether that's like. They work from home that day, they go online and they, you know, I can imagine a woman lying on the sofa going, Oh my God, I can do this lying down, but I can't do it sat up at my desk. Especially when Bob's eating peanuts next to me and I just want to smash him in the face, you know, but I think that, you know, like, um, um, different working options, I think is one of the easiest solutions to me.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I see that's where I kind Get stuck on this one in that I want, I want an employer to do everything to support a woman to stay in the workplace, whatever that is, whether it's the healthcare aspects, uh, you know, the managerial support, the flexible working from home, et cetera. So, and, and you would find here, a lot of companies do have a very good, say, extended leave policy or extended sickness policy that, you know, if someone had very severe symptoms with their doctor and so forth, you could argue would fall under that.

I think that's a really nice, um, ask no question. Uh, you know, I think that's a nice way to do it because I know in Ireland, Bank of Ireland here brought in menopause leave, but I haven't seen what the uptake has been to date, but I know initially. It was very, very low because you've a dropdown menu where you're putting down that you're out because of menopause.

And again, that's a step that it's kind of question, are you, are people, are women ready to take that step? You know? So, whereas I think if you have something like ask no question, that's, that's easier, isn't it? You know, I would have taught, you know, it's easier to tick that box, you know, but for sure. And, but I think that, you know, like in the UK, they've got a lot of policies there, you know, that are available to download and that companies can look at.

And so I think that it's, it's, it's for me. It's okay for companies to have different ways of doing this. I don't think there needs to be like a global, like solution. I think it can look different, but I think that, but I think that, but just having it as a classification in the workplace is something that's important.

That's what I think, right. I think that that's something that they, they need. And so just having that recognition is really important. So I'll keep you posted on how that goes in Canada. Yeah, yeah, no, that would be great. Yeah, I'd like that to get moving for sure. Yeah, no, that'd be exciting to see. And I, I have, um, I flicked through the, the, the, that survey from the Menopause Foundation, but I must sit down now, um, and have a good, uh, Go through it, but it's like that.

It's when you start to see the dollar implications, that's where, you know, the conversation does change, you know, and I, I think that's, that's an important thing because that's really, then it means that the senior management are there, they will start to open up to that conversation and we just needed to then kind of just drill down, you know, yeah, exactly.

And, and I think. Uh, change needs to happen from the top. There's enough people doing a grassroots movement. The reason I get in is often because it's the grassroots movement of women saying, will you come to my workplace? Will you come to my office? You know that, right? So getting buy in from management is definitely like the, the, the key to making this change successful.

And I don't know about you, but as soon as I've done a talk, I follow up and follow up with emails and go, Hey, how's it going? Do you, can I jump on a call? Can we. See if you need any more solutions for the workplace. I make sure that because everyone feels empowered in the moment, but then you got to keep the momentum going.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Cause I think that's a really important part of it. And I talk a lot about this with, um, with HR managers, et cetera, you know, supporting menopause. It's not a flash in the pan. You have to be committed to it long term because this isn't just a trend that's here and it's going to go away.

Yes. It's trendy at the moment because we're now discussing it, but the aim is that it becomes an embedded part of any. Workplace structure, you know, so it's just the pause isn't going anywhere. No. No. Uh, well, Amanda, thanks a million for, uh, chatting today, bringing it, bringing, uh, bringing us up to speed and, uh, look forward to, uh, yeah, we'll definitely have to check in specifically on the workplace now next year and see, see what's happening over in Canada.

And, uh, yeah. See, see, see if you're still smoking then. Yeah. Maybe you'll bypass us, who knows? Who knows? Good luck with the podcast. Thanks for having me on. Thanks Amanda, take care. Thank you for listening to Menopause Uprising. With me, your host Catherine O'Keefe. I really hope you enjoyed this week's episode.