When Cancer Knocks on Your Door

My guest this week on Menopause Uprising is, Dearbhaile O'Hare. Dearbhaile is a survivor of breast cancer and has written a book telling her story.

Things Went T*Ts Up is written and illustrated from the hearts of two breast cancer thrivers - Dearbhaile O'Hare and Jess Pierce.

The goal of the book is to bring comfort and hope (and even an unexpected laugh) to anyone going through a cancer diagnosis, or caring for a loved one going through it. All profits from the sale of this book are going to the Marie Keating Foundation and Purple House Cancer Support - paying it forward to those who so lovingly had our backs when we needed it the most. 

The book is available to purchase from Amazon and from www.thingswenttitsup.ie

To learn more about Dearbhaile click HERE

Transcript -Automatically Generated

So I was sitting in the sitting room last weekend and my son was sitting reading as he normally is with me and he was looking at the title of my book and he turned around and he said to me, Mommy, that's not a very appropriate book title. Things went tits up, but I did explain to him your journey, Dervla, the book was like and he was very interested then, but he didn't wait for our conversation to start up.

Exactly, exactly. It's a good conversation opener anyway. Yes, yes, yes. Um, and you know, I think as kids certainly, you know, they hear so much about cancer now, you know, um, it is a part of everyday life. Yeah. And I think just sometimes it's lovely to hear, uh, kind of the positive outcome and, you know, the, The light at the end of the tunnel.

Exactly, exactly, and just make it a little bit less scary. Yeah, definitely. Otherwise the big C word. It is a really scary word for everyone, isn't it? Absolutely. Your journey, um, would you like to just share, you know, your journey? Sure. Of course, um, so I guess kind of towards the end of 2020 or 2021, um, I was having a rough old time at my back and I ended up having a planned surgery and then an emergency surgery a few weeks later, and that resulted in kind of a slow, painful rehab of about six months.

Um, the world's slowest, you know, couch to 5k, just building back up, walking from the couch to the front door to around the corner. Basically I was back on my feet, barely back on my feet, and I found a lump. And I just remember thinking to myself at the time, um, Couldn't be, couldn't, like, you know, it couldn't be that unlucky for it to be something sinister.

So I put it to the back of my mind, which I would not recommend. But, you know, life got busy again. Um, I was back working full time, exercising, all that good stuff. And, uh, it seems crazy now when I think of it, but my mindset at the time was kind of, I'm too busy to make a GP appointment. But. The company that I work for, they're ironically, they have this concept of wellness days, which is a fabulous benefit to have.

So we got the first Friday off, um, for each of the summer months. And I bit the bullet and I used one of those days to make an appointment with the GP and get this legally lump checked out. So then she gave me, um, reassurance that, you know, I was relatively young, uh, fit and healthy, but because it was symptomatic, um, with a lump, she referred me to the, Uh, breast check clinic and I got an appointment then I think it was about three weeks later.

Um, and then I remember going to see the consultant and I think my appointment was probably around five o'clock in the evening and I left that appointment with a card in my hand for a mammogram the next morning at eight. So I kind of knew I was in trouble then. So next morning went along and I had um, mammogram and that was followed then immediately by a, uh, ultrasound and then a biopsy.

So that was like a triple assessment just before 9 a. m. and they said then that they'd come back. They take me back in a few days for some preliminary results and to bring someone along. That was during COVID, so that kind of, Was nearly preparing me without having to tell me so then I heard those words the three words No one wants to hear you've got cancer.

And that was on the 24th of September 2021 so I don't think you'll ever forget that date and it's the most Surreal feeling in the world like it's just it's got it's hard to explain. I think em, it's kind of like the world around you stops And then your brain takes off in flight and it's going like a million miles an hour and it sounds kind of cliched but I remember it kind of feeling like I was trapped in a silent movie because I could see that the doctors and the nurses and my husband they're all talking but like all I heard was white noise and I heard two words and it was cancer and Treatable.

So then I just hung on to that treatable word and for dear life. But um, anyone that's been through it then they know that the next few weeks they're, they're pretty miserable. It's, it's tough going because you're living in uncertainty, kind of a limbo where you know you've got a lump, you know it's sinister, but you don't know quite how bad it is.

So you have all of these scans and staging processes etc. And I just remember at the time been so tired, but like I kept waking on the hour every hour and again my brain was going there's something I need to remember here, there's something important. And then it's like, oh yeah, I've got cancer. So horrible old time.

But then I think once I got my treatment plan in place, um, I got this really weird sense of calm and I just realized, okay, this is out of my control and I need to trust in the process and trust in that magic that the oncology team are about to perform. And then it sounds a bit corny again, but I remember that day I got my treatment plan.

I saw a thing on Instagram and it was like a saying, saying, You can do this, you will do this, trust and believe. So I wrote that down, I took a screenshot of it, I had it on my phone and I thought, you know what, if I look at that every single day, I'm going to start believing that soon enough myself. So then treatment was, um, it began, I think, in October of 2021.

Yeah, it's hard to keep track of time. Um, it was quite an aggressive, uh, treatment. So I had 19 months in total of chemo and, uh, chemotherapy and immunotherapy infusions every three weeks over the course of those 19 months. And then I had three surgeries. So I had a, uh, complete mastectomy and reconstruction, and I had some nodes removed as well.

So then on the, I think it was the 14th of April, 2023. Again, another date I'll never forget. I just remember sitting in the chemo chair for, hopefully, last ever chemo infusion and just watching that one last little drop and just been totally mesmerized by it. Literally thinking that one drop is what's going to hopefully separate me from being a cancer patient and a cancer survivor and it's, again, that's what it's all about.

Such a bizarre feeling, like it's joy, relief, disbelief, all wrapped up into one. I, I can, I can imagine. And I, I'd say like, you know, when you talk there about, you know, sitting in the room and hearing that diagnosis, I'm there with you. I can totally imagine that, you know, it is that you just kind of, I'd say you just go into a parallel universe where it's like, you know, and of course your head goes off on a, on a, The what ifs, the buts.

Yeah, exactly. Just racing ahead of everything. Yeah, yeah. That's, I guess that's anxiety coming in too, isn't it? That it goes into all the kind of the what if scenarios. Dervis, can I just ask you, when you went, like, if we go all the way back and to when you started, over the lung. Were you actually doing regular checks or what happened that you found it?

Yeah, um, I used to not be great at it, but then I have a couple of friends who have been through the cancer, um, breast cancer journey as well. And You know, they were harping on at me to do these checks. So, yeah, I was doing regular ish. Probably not every month, like I would recommend people to do. But, but regular ish.

But yeah, I'd found it myself and, um, which is a good thing because, um, at the time I think I was 45, so I wouldn't have been, you know, Um, you know, automatically signed up for a mammogram until I think you're 50. So yeah, it was a good thing. But I think once you are symptomatic, then it tends to be the rule of thumb that you'll be seen within three weeks in the breast check clinic.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So it's, it's kind of, it's, it's the power of we can't underestimate doing the self check, right? Yeah, yeah, exactly. Feel them on the first. That's what everyone says. So set the reminder in your phone and go and feel them on the first. That's really, yeah, it's the easy ways to think about it, isn't it?

I, I, yeah. I always kind of say we should be doing two monthly checks. Um, the breast check and also the vulva check. Um, yeah. You know, so we're familiar, you know, more awareness around vulva cancer as well, which is really, really important, you know? Um, yeah. And in terms of, um, sew treatment was just over, uh, two years.

Was it Two years? Yeah. Yeah, the bones of two years, yeah, which I hadn't fully expected. I think it was probably because I didn't have a, what they call a PCR, pathologically complete response to chemo. So then after my surgery, I was put onto this, um, pretty new drug called Ketcylo, which is a mixture of chemo and immunotherapy infusions.

And, um, That's to try and prevent your chance of recurrence. Um, so yeah, I mean, it was amazing to kind of think that when I was first diagnosed, I don't think that drug was available in Ireland at the time. So just in that short space of time, this became available. And, um, but yeah, it meant I had another 14 infusions.

So one every three weeks, um, post surgery as well. Yeah, yeah. And that's kind of, you know, that's, it's, it's just, I think you, it's anything like that where, you know, it is, it's a major wake up call, isn't it? Yeah, totally, totally. It's, yeah, it just makes you, I suppose, prioritise and then really understand what's important and, you know, how to look after yourself and mind yourself.

And I think, um, one of the things that surprised me was recovery. So, that is A fairly tricky phase because people think, okay, you've got diagnosis and then you've got all of your treatment and then suddenly you're released into the wild, like you've gone from having hospital appointments nearly probably every week between bloods and scans and chemo infusions and surgeries, etc.

And then you're unplugged and it's like, okay, see you in three months, whatever. And that's a tricky phase. I think that's one that can really get inside your head. And I'm. But again, having friends who've been through before, they gave me some great advice saying, you know, take your time to recover and to heal.

And then, you know, it makes sense because you've been, In fight or flight for so long. So my case was best part of two years and you're keeping your head down You're just thinking get through the next treatment get another one off the list and then it's finished And then you kind of just come up for air and you're thinking what just happened.

But em, I don't plan up my sleeve you're probably gonna think I'm a bit nuts about this, but eh, when I unplugged from the chemo on the Friday, I On the following Tuesday, I started a course in the National Training Center to become a personal trainer. So that was kind of just to take back some control of myself.

And then following on from that, I went on and I did a course remotely to become a cancer exercise specialist. And then just two weekends ago, I got a strength and conditioning qualification with the NTC. Doing Olympic lifts, and like these are things I would never have thought possible when I was in the throes of those back surgeries and chemo.

But they were definitely some of the best decisions I could have made for recovery and it was just keeping my, you know, my head and my body busy doing something that I enjoyed. And then just bringing back the confidence as well. I have a poem that I can talk about later, but talking about what it feels like going back to a gym when you're in the midst of cancer treatment and it's, it's a scary old place.

So, um, now doing those courses, it just means that I understand how to modify exercises, even for myself and adapt to where necessary. So, just a, Definitely exercise with some, sorry. No, that's brilliant, isn't it? Because I think, um, um, I think, you know, when you're going through that journey, uh, you can either just get kind of really stuck in the muck, can't you?

And just, you know, go down the dark tunnel or, you know, what can help is if you can just, distraction, I guess, is probably what it is, isn't it? Totally. Just trying to have other. Uh, parts of your life that are kind of keeping you on an even keel with everything that's going on medically. Absolutely. Like, I remember having been through the back surgeries, it kind of gave me that wake up call of use it or lose it.

And I was terrified that would happen again when I was going through chemo. So I set myself a little goal of, you know, getting out in nature every single day, you know, bring the dog for a walk or just go for a walk myself. But then also, you to take a picture of something unusual each day. And that was just giving me something outside of the norm, you know, outside of the hospital appointments to focus on.

And then it turns out now that I have this little bank of photos to look back on that we're just looking out for these glimmers that you'd find every day. So it just taught you to slow down something outside of the routine of those hospital appointments. Yeah. Yeah. I love that because we can find joy in the mundane, can't we?

And I think depending on where your head is at, um, you know, the simplest thing or so a different angle can give you, can give you a different insight, you know, and when you're When you were going through, uh, treatment, did you find what, what else kind of helped you in terms of, you know, physically helped you in terms of keeping yourself strong and, and things like that?

Any tips in relation to, you know, what, what others that are, you know, on this journey could look at? Yeah, I think the two things that really, really helped me, um, were exercise and writing. So just, I suppose, back on the exercise one again, that really, really helped me. This was. mentally, and it helped me physically, and it helped me emotionally, and it helped me, um, it helped my tolerance of the chemos, it helped recover from surgeries quicker, but I think it just made me feel like me again, and then, because it's a time that can feel desperately out of control, so it's a way of taking back control of yourself, and just, you know, exercise just made me feel stronger, it helped bring back that confidence, because you're stripped right back during chemo, you know, everything, your femininity, your hair, you're losing all of this, and you're losing your confidence.

And you're losing a lot of strength as well. So I think it's just so important to keep moving. So even the simplest of movements, um, on days when you're feeling rubbish, that's when you really, really should get out and just even spend the five minutes in nature. And it's funny, I was having a chat with a friend over the weekend who'd been through breast cancer journey as well.

And, um, she passed on a, um, it was an article in, I think it was in the Guardian, about these hope molecules. I don't know if you've heard about them, but, um, they're, they're saying that, uh, studies are showing that there's kind of a, a chemical connection between strength and mood and longevity and that's why any form of movement, you know, always makes you feel better.

Um, God, I hope I don't butcher it now, but they were talking about these molecules, um, I think they were proteins called myokines or something that cross the blood brain barrier and they, yeah, and they act like these, um, you know, And natural antidepressants, so elevate your mood, so basically when you're exercising you've got dopamine, and you've got your serotonin, and then you've got these hope molecules, so it's like a happy hour for your head, it's just like, you know, a cocktail of mood boosters.

Um, definitely the exercise, even the gentle movement, like even just stretching on days you're feeling rubbish, that really, really helps. And then writing was the other thing that also really, really helped me. Um, just, you know, I always It wouldn't have been great by talking about feelings, but I've always got great comfort in writing them down.

So, I don't know if you want me to talk a little bit about the book? No, no, I mean, I'm a, I'm a, I'm a, I'm a journal freak. I'm like, I love journaling. I'm always like, I generally post, you know, if I'm off somewhere, the one thing I'll be Googling is kind of, you know, a local paper shop or, you know, if I'm in Italy, I generally come home with about ten journals.

Well, no, maybe five. Um, but I, I, I, I get great relief from journaling, um, and it doesn't have to be, you know, deep intense journaling. Every night I do my gratitude journal, um, in just one of my books. I think it's very powerful and I, and I know I've read articles about this, you know, the different, and there is a difference.

between actually physically writing as opposed to typing it on the laptop. And I think, yes, it's old school, but I'm happy with old school because I do think Oh, I'm all about the old school. Definitely, definitely. Just, you know, writing down those notes, like you said. So yeah, I mean, during the course of the, I suppose, the 19 months of treatment, I, was scribbling down poems on my phone or in little journals like that as well and you know at the time I was thinking I'd just use them for me it was a way I suppose of me getting it off my chest as such, excuse the pun, but um as I went through unintentional but um I remember kind of just reading a few of the poems to, um, people, uh, when I'd finished treatment and then kind of thinking maybe I'd put it together in a book, just even for myself, something to look back on.

And then there was, back to these magic little moments, little glimmers, uh, just a sequence of events that happened that resulted in the book. So I was coming back from the gym with a friend and she was telling me about her friend who'd been through breast cancer, um, And the book was on my mind at the time, and I just said to her, she doesn't draw by any chance, does she?

And she said, yeah, yeah, she does, uh, Jess, she's an illustrator, do you know her? And I'm like, no. So it was total serendipity. So she put us in touch, and we met, and then Jess, um, illustrated the book, and, you know, her illustrations, they're gorgeous, they just brought the book to life, really. And then, so I think it was just, you know, It was kind of something that I'd like to have been able to put my hand to when I was going through treatment and that, you know, the goal for the book would be that it would resonate and bring comfort and hope to anyone that's going through treatment.

Particularly during those scary early days and then, um, also to give insight to anyone caring for a loved one that's going through treatment as well. Oh, sorry, it's called things. Sorry. I'll just tell you, I have a friend who's going through it at the moment and she found great solace from your book. Oh, that's lovely to hear.

Yeah. So, and I think it's like you, you, you know, I can imagine, uh, like, you know, when you're in the room and they gave you diagnosis, um, I, I can just imagine what that felt like, but I think as you go through all the different steps, I do think it, it's, it'll resonate with the person who's going through it with you, or, you know, if you've, being through it before.

So I don't underestimate the power of words, they're, you know, they can, they can reach very deep. Yeah, that's lovely. Thank you so much. Um, yeah, I remember hearing, it was an interview with Michael Caine and he, it was just something that struck with me. He, he had a phrase, um, use the difficulty. And he was kind of saying that there's never a thing so bad that you can't reframe it and turn it around into something good.

And that if you could use your difficulty, kind of even 1 percent to your advantage, then you didn't let it get to you. So hopefully the book is kind of an example of that. Just turning, having something nice out of a crappy situation, I guess. But if it can bring that little bit of comfort or hope to others.

Yeah. And I think that that is the, that is the, that's the kind of, it's a strong word, but I mean, you know, that, that is looking at the, I guess the positive, um, side of it, isn't it? You know? Um, and unfortunately so many women are going through breast cancer. Yeah. No, it's scary. It's better. Um, but yeah. Yeah, definitely.

I think the, I think the stats for Ireland and the UK is one in seven women. So it's frightening. Like, I think it's one in two people who get cancer of some sort in a lifetime. And then it's one in seven women who get breast cancer. And then, you know, Men can get breast cancer too as well. I know it's rarer, but it's still a fact of life.

Yeah, it's, it's frightening to think how prevalent it is. But as you said, the treatment is just getting so much more sophisticated and a little bit more gentle. So yeah, yeah, it's, it's positive. It is frightening but I think this is where, I think this is where it's so important, the monthly check is just so important, um, and just, and the other thing is, um, Dermot, I don't know if you're aware, like, is there other things to be keeping an eye out for other than looking for a lump?

Yeah, absolutely. There's, it's not always a lump. I've heard of, you know, women presenting that they might have had a rash. are kind of puckering, or kind of an orange peel, almost like a cellulite type effect, or maybe veins might be a bit more prominent on the breast as well. And one thing that I didn't know before was that when you're doing a breast check, you'd also include under your arm, and then up to your collarbone, because the breast tissue extends outwards.

out, you know, all that area as well. So it's, it's not always just a lump. It could be pain as well, but I think it's kind of, if you're worried about something, get it checked, you're not wasting anyone's time, go along and get it checked and hopefully it's nothing. Yeah. Yeah, and I think the other thing is getting on the breast check register.

I know I've had, um, I had mine done I think last summer and actually I had my initial one done and then they rang me very quickly afterwards saying it, I don't know, something wasn't clear. So then I had to go to Gunston's and they did it again. But I think I'm actually quite, uh, small. I'm flat chested, but, um, so I think that made, that always makes it more difficult.

Um, but I thought it was great. I was very happy that they were being so thorough to kind of, you know, um, have me back so quickly. So, you know, I think we've, we've Thankfully that support, um, is, is better. But just on, you know, it's, it just is such a tough journey. Um, once it starts, isn't it? Do you feel Sorry, I'm sorry I shouldn't say.

I think just to normalise it and to talk about it is so important. So like, if you're going for your mammogram, chat about it with your friends. So then hopefully it'll trigger them to go, okay, I must book one in, or I must check. You know, just, you know, make it, normalize it. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, 100%. And when, when, when you look at it, um, what about menopause then, in the whole equation?

Yeah, that's, that's, oh, it's a tricky, tricky topic because, you know, obviously menopause, it's a fact of life. It's going to happen to people. All of us women, at some stage or another. But then I think when it's chemically induced or surgically induced during cancer treatment, it just kind of feels like you're propelled into menopause at breakneck speed and it's just another kick me.

When I'm down. And I heard, um, Dr. Eliza Reardon talking the other night and she mentioned she referred to it as the crash menopause which is so apt, so. Cliff edge, cliff edge menopause is what I generally, yeah. Absolutely, and then I just remember when getting ready for chemo they give you kind of a list of all of these side effects.

It's a very long list that can happen and just one little word on that sheet was menopause and I don't think like I understood, quite understood what it was going to mean but um, like it's tough because you're going through cancer treatment and then on top of all of that you have menopause symptoms of you know, the hot flushes, the joint pain was a big big one for me, um, weight gain as well, like all that joyful stuff.

So it's just kind of like a bit of a Double whammy. So you've got your chemo brain, you've got your menopause brain, and I definitely spent, I'd say, the first year and a bit just kind of walking around in a bit of a fog, going, you know, coming into a room going, what am I doing in here? Or forgetting simple names, you know, um, names for everyday objects, names for people you know all your life, and so I think, I heard this good analogy of it's, um, For cancer induced menopause, as opposed to the natural menopause, like if you think of the natural menopause, you've got this estrogen tap or your hormone tap, and it's slowly, slowly being turned off, but you're still feeding some of the hormones into your system, but for certain cancers and certain cancer subtypes, like the estrogen receptor positive subtype, which was one of the subtypes I had, estrogen helps the cancer cells to spread and grow.

So they need to, you know, cut off that estrogen pretty abruptly. So that leads to this cliff edge menopause where you're just propelled into those symptoms straight away. So it's tough. And then there's the added kicker of With that subtype of breast cancer, you can't take HRD. HRT, it's a, it's a no no.

But there are, you know, there's plenty of things that we can still do, um, just empowering ourselves, um, to get through it. And things that I found helpful were just working on the basics, so you're getting your sleep right. And you're getting your nutrition as right as possible, you know, just eating balanced meals and then also exercise.

So they're talking about this. I think it's 150 and moderate minutes seems to be this magic number. But, um, so that's. Maybe three by 30 minutes of cardio sessions per week and that could be down to just walking with a dog, walking with your buddy but just getting slightly out of breath for um Those 30 minutes and then two 30 minutes resistance trainings and sessions.

So that's like strength training and that could be With just your body weight or it could be um lifting weights, but you know, that's going to help strengthen your bones I have ward off, hopefully, osteopenia or osteoporosis, but it's building your muscle, it's giving you back, um, energy and confidence. So it's just, you know, all about investing in the future, old lady bod.

Yeah, it's that, um, yeah, I like, that's the, that's the, The good side of it in terms of whatever you do, food wise, movement wise, you are investing in the future. I always say, you know, that is one of the opportunities of menopause. But the other thing is just to say when you were talking about, you know, the cliff edge, the crash that happens with early menopause, either surgical or medication induced, I, you know, the way I look at it terribly is, Natural menopause is a privilege.

I, because I do a lot of work with women going through the earlier forms of menopause and they are far more challenging. Um, I mean, you know, that first time the symptoms tend to be much more intense from the brain fog, from the anxiety. from the vaginal dryness, um, you know, and the hot flushes, they just tend to be more intense.

And it is like, you don't have that nice gradual introduction to menopause, you get to the natural menopause. So like that tap analogy, yeah, you, you're just, you literally, you know, overnight or maybe over a period of weeks, that supply finishes. And I think too, like, you know, when you were saying there about, you know, you've gone into a room.

Why am I there? You're forgetting names. That's scary. Yeah, it is. It is. Or just your concentration. Like, I couldn't watch a movie with my hubby. He'd be like, come on, we'll watch a movie. But like, half an hour and I'm done. I had to go and do something else. Just, yeah. Concentration completely shot. Yeah. Yeah.

And I think when all of that comes together, it is like, it's the perfect storm, isn't it? You know? It's like. It is. It is. And I think, I think, um, I think. your testament to how to positively bring yourself through what is a really really challenging tough journey and you know, I think like that's it's a lovely empowering message for anyone listening to you know, like to look at the steps that you took.

And I think even to kind of, you know, as you said, you were learning new things, you know, going off to do the personal training, all of that. I think you probably, I know if it was me, I would be, I, I a hundred percent get you. I'd have to do something because I think otherwise. I'd probably be constant rabbit, rabbit and headlights.

Oh, totally. It's just about kind of trying to take back a little bit of control, or just controlling what you can control as such. You know, just, you know, and that's just like getting those basics right as well. Yeah. Why do you think, you know, because I like, I know like confidence takes a knock with menopause, you know, that's, that's, um, that's something we kind of talk about a lot, but cancer really impacts confidence too, doesn't it?

Yeah, definitely. Again, it's just because you have to just give in to it and just go with it. And then like, you can't control losing your hair. And that is, I think for me, that was an area that I struggled with that I didn't expect to. But, um, I think it was because Oh,

yeah, no, like, I mean, look, exercise. Oh gosh, I just find, you know, that's my go to. And even like you said earlier, you know, if I'm really struggling, really tired. Now there's some days, yeah, you just know you're better off just go to bed. But if there's other days, I know a walk around the block will, will do, will do me better, you know.

Just what you mentioned there, the returning to work. I think that, I think that's something. We maybe don't talk about enough when it comes to breast cancer, because if you think about it like that, you are off, you're off for a long time, you're in a bubble. Generally, you're in the bubble of, as you said, hospital appointments, um, etc.

And all of a sudden, you're back into, you know, probably, you know, you're doing your job, and yes, I'm sure it's a return to work on a phased basis. But that is a, it's another adjustment, isn't it?

Yeah, yeah,

yeah.

Yeah, that's, that's great. And it's like, um, I often talk about ikigai, it's a Japanese phrase and it's really, you know, about, you know, it's for all of us looking at, you know, in your life, what's your passion? What's your purpose? What do you love doing? And it's just making sure that you bring parts of that into your every day.

So that's like you having, you know, doing the PT training, whatever it is, that's the key guy. And it's really important for all of us that we have that because that's what makes the And that's what makes life, um, fulfilling. That's what kind of, you know, you're bringing all of it, um, together to, you know, kind of harmonize, um, I guess, you know.

And I think too, I think too, I, I, I would imagine, um, going through a cancer journey, you are going to be a different person, the other end, in, in some shape or form. A

hundred percent. Yeah. A hundred percent. Um, thanks so much for sharing the journey and I'd love, would you mind, would you read your poem? Your menopause poem?

We will put details of Dervla's book in the show notes as well. It is for anyone who's going through a cancer journey, breast cancer. It's such a lovely, supportive book. I think little friends to have on the journey, uh, with you.

Oh, it ticks so many buttons that we can all relate to. Oh my god, doesn't it? Yes, we can all relate to that. Sure. Dervale, thanks so much for coming on today and I'm so glad to see that you're on the other side of your journey. And, um, I, like, honestly, you know, I can just tell you, um, from my friends who's currently going through it, uh, this, this will make people smile and who are sitting maybe having chemo treatment.

And, you know, I always kind of think if we can help one person, um, That's, uh, that's a nice day and it certainly always makes me smile. So, um, it's a beautiful, beautiful book. So thanks so much.

Thank you.