Menopause Workplace Support

This week on the Menopause Uprising Podcast we have Minister Roderic O'Gorman. Minister Roderic O’Gorman has told leading menopause consultant Catherine O’Keeffe that the government has commissioned research to look at how best to support people in the workplace with menopausal symptoms. 

The Minister for Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth of Ireland was a guest on ‘The Menopause Uprising', which is hosted by Catherine O’Keeffe, otherwise known as the Wellness Warrior. Minister O’Gorman outlined that the research is part of the government’s Women’s Health Action plan, which also deals with issues such as supporting people going through IVF, and establishing legislation surrounding surrogacy. 

Minister O’Gorman’s conversation came about as a recent Wellness Warrior ‘Menopause and Your Work’ survey showed almost four fifths of people still believe menopause is a taboo in the workplace, while half would like an in-house support group with colleagues. The top symptoms listed by people having difficulty in work because of menopause were brain fog, anxiety, loss of confidence and insomnia. 

Speaking on the ‘Menopause Uprising’ podcast, Minister O’Gorman explained the nature of the research currently underway: "Some of the issues that have come up in the course of our research are the need for basics in the workplace for people with menopausal symptoms, such as temperature control in an office, or having suitable material in a uniform. Other issues relate to the culture in a workplace - ensuring people are comfortable in going to their line manager to discuss their symptoms and needs.”

He told Catherine that progress has been made in the area of supporting menopausal women in the workplace, but more needs to be done: "A lot of companies in both the public and private sector are already taking steps towards supporting people going through menopause in the workplace. For now, it’s about guidance, support, better information and setting out best practices in workplaces. I think we can achieve a lot for a large proportion of workers and employees through that.” 

Transcript -Automatically Generated

Welcome to another episode of Menopause Uprising with me, your host, Catherine O'Keeffe. So this is a conversation that I have been so excited to have for quite a few months now. And today's guest has a very busy calendar, so it took a bit of to ing and fro ing to get us together, but we got there in the end.

I really hope you can take the time to listen to today's episode. with Minister Roderick O'Gorman, who is the Minister for Children, Disability, Equality and Integration in Ireland. We had a super chat about the work that Roderick is doing, about the importance of menopause in Ireland, and also about the progress we have made and we continue to make in relation to women's health.

in Ireland. I really hope you enjoyed the session. Don't forget to rate or review in the comments on whatever platform you're listening to. Thank you. So Roderick, I'm thrilled to have you here with me today. And I guess from my perspective, uh, I'm Um, I very much would see you are renowned in Ireland in relation to the role you've taken in quality and inclusion and certainly as a parent, you know, I would thank you for a huge amount of work that you've done, you know, certainly for parents cares and also for children.

And I was so excited. When I saw that you were, you know, bringing menopause to the forefront and a huge part of the work that I do is around the diversity and inclusion aspect of menopause, because it is such a key aspect of a person's life. And I guess the other part of it is, it's not just the person going through it, it's all the touch points in that person's life, but it just in relation to supporting menopause.

in the workplace. Why do you feel, you know, that's so important now that we are taking a very active role in Ireland? I think it's so important because it's going to happen to every single woman, be they work in the workforce, be they not in the workforce. But because I think about 80 percent of women, uh, when they, uh, experienced an anapause, they have It's quite significant symptoms, be they physical symptoms, be they emotional symptoms.

That's a very significant body of the workforce who for, you know, a couple of years in their life and probably if you were looking at solely from a workforce point of view, one of the most productive parts of their life when they're, you know, many of them may be approaching senior being in senior management roles where they have, where they're experiencing symptoms that as a society.

We've always been quite reluctant to talk about and just kind of, you know, just, just don't go there. And that's been the approach. And, you know, I remember talking to, um, uh, a colleague who I won't name who said, um, he, uh, he did an interview, uh, about, uh, uh, about menopause, about menstruation, and someone mentioned afterwards that he'd avoided saying the word period in about at all in a 10 minute interview just because of the awkwardness.

And it, it does exist. You have to admit, particularly among men, there's a, there's an awkwardness, there's a reluctance to go there. So we have, I suppose, I say we, society has created this kind of mystique, this myth and this desire not to talk about this particular issue and it's very, it's a, it's an absolutely real issue for every woman and it has very significant impacts on a very significant number of women and it's because of that that I think we need to address it, be it in the workplace, as some of the work I'm hoping to advance will cover or be it the wider health issues.

Uh, supports, uh, and that's work that the Department of Health have been advancing. Yeah. Yeah. And I, I know I've been involved in the Women's Task Force since that started in 2019. So like, it's been great, you know, the awareness campaign and all the strides that we're taking there. But just when you say like, it has been very much that case of push it under the carpet, hasn't it?

And you know, we don't talk about it. Uh, I can remember I was working with, um, a company over on the West and it was actually one of their male directors who had said, Listen, I want to get someone in to talk about menopause. So I went down and they were shift workers. So we, you know, different times and so forth.

But when, you know, it was brilliant. We'd loads of men who came to the sessions. But he basically, he, as he introduced me, he was saying, you know, I really struggled to say the word menopause when I was bringing it up to my team. He said, now, as you use the word more, it becomes more comfortable. And I think, I think that's a huge step forward in the conversation.

Um, and I, you know, I think another key part of it is the fact that, you know, I think we're doing, we're making great strides in Ireland. Yeah. in relation to many aspects of women's health, but particularly I think around menopause and menstruation. And as you know, this government has, has launched a women's health action plan and setting out a wide range of health initiatives specifically directed towards women.

And obviously, as you know, there's the six menopause clinics that have been set up around the country, very much designed for, Uh, women who are experiencing those most severe symptoms, uh, um, during, during menopause. But it's also looking at issues like the support we're providing now for IVF, the, the legislation to, to allow IVF, and, and sorry, to allow surrogacy, for example, um, even, you know, measures in, in ensuring that, uh, where, where a woman is, um, you know, undertaking a termination, that they won't be harassed in terms of, uh, of, of attending a hospital or clinic.

So I, I do think. Uh, this government is taking women's health issues serious, seriously. Uh, and I like to feel within my own department, both on, as you mentioned, on the early years side, but also across the range of kind of employment equality issues. We're also looking to take those issues very seriously too.

Yeah, no, and I think that's, it's been brilliant. I think for me, like, you know, I can remember my mum going through menopause. She had no support and definitely nobody was talking about it. And for her, she'd had a hysterectomy. So it would have been definitely more challenging. So it's so refreshing now to be part of the generation that is, you know, consciously bringing menopause to the forefront.

And, uh, you know, I think, uh, I think we're doing a lot and I think we've, we've more. Work to do, but I think certainly we're making great strides and strides forwards in terms of when we, you know, when we look at what's happening internationally and we look at Ireland, we're certainly up there in the top five.

Progressive countries, definitely when it comes to menopause, and we're taking, we are kind of making a big shift now in relation to menstruation as well. But what do you think could be the next steps that, you know, we can take in terms of maybe just pushing us that little bit further? Well, our department, um, earlier this year commissioned research looking at how we design.

template policies to support employers, uh, policies around menopause and menstruation more, more broadly. Um, and I actually, I, I, I asked the department to commission that research primarily after I had a really good, um, conversation with some force, uh, the force of trade union, some of their activists who are, who are, um, focusing on this issue.

And we've just, as you know, we earlier this week announced, The, um, domestic violence leave. Mm-Hmm, . Um, and we have, um, uh, put in place policies to support employers implementing that. And I thought, well, maybe there are template policies that we can put in place on, on, on broader issues as well. Issues that, um, employers might feel reluctant to go.

To address or or or uncertain how to address. That's what we found when we were addressing domestic violence in the work. Yeah, victims of domestic violence when they're in their their kind of their workspace. And it's also what we found in terms of this. So we've commissioned that research and we'll respond to it once it's once it's completed.

But some of the things that have kind of come up during that is some of it's very basic temper, temperature control in an office or in the workplace, um, the material in a uniform. And again, in terms of, of, of, of heat, uh, heat retention. Um, and some of it is that culture thing we spoke about earlier on in terms of being able to go to your line manager, be they male or female, and be able to say, uh, I'm having bad menstrual cramps today.

Would it be possible that I. You know, work from home today or, um, just, just being able to have that conversation because I think that's key, key, that's, that's absolutely key. And once we do that, I think we can do more. So I suppose we're proposing guidance at the moment. We're not proposing anything mandatory right now.

Um, but look, I think guidance supports best practice. And we know a lot of, um, companies, uh, in both the public and private sector. are taking steps already, so I know the civil service, civil service have done a really good piece at the moment, and that impacts, you know, tens of hundreds of thousands of employees in the country.

I know, I think Spain have legislated for a specific leave for, for menstrual leave, um, I suppose we've brought in a good number of leaves in the course of this government, and I know some employers groups, they're just, you know, there's quite a lot of change right now, and maybe they're looking for a little bit of time to bed that down.

Yeah, and you know, you have to kind of listen to the needs of employers as well as the needs of employees. But I think for now, it's about guidance, it's about support, it's about better information and setting out best practice on the, on the workplace side. And I think we can, we can achieve a lot, um, for, you know, a very large proportion of, uh, female employees, female workers through doing that.

And, uh, you know, I think the guidance, the guidance documents are key and I know, um, I had been part of the review of the civil service policy and, you know, that. As you see, you know, I would probably say is like a guidance is can be just as important because it lays that kind of foundation. And, you know, if we look at companies in Ireland and internationally, just, you know, I've worked since I started, I've been in workplaces since 2017.

And I've worked with probably over 350 workplaces at this stage. And like you say, there's many of them who are now right. OK, what more can I do? What are my next steps? And they are kind of looking like that. They're looking at temperature control. They're looking at your uniforms, particularly if it's depending on the work environment and.

There's so many practical things you can do around that. And I think it's, it's understanding, supporting menopause in the workplace. It does not have to be expensive. Getting a fan for someone who's having challenges. I mean, you can get them on Amazon cheap enough, you know? So I think sometimes it's just actually, and I think for employers, like you said, Roderick, it's, it's kind of knowing that, listen, you know, who, What can I look at?

What are the practical things that might be often one thing that comes up for me is a lot of people say, Oh, you know, move, let's move, you know, a person by the window. And I'm kind of like, well, actually, by the window can be the worst place to put someone if they're in direct sunlight and having hot flushes, you know, so it's always, I guess for me, you know, I would always say it's the role the person is doing in the individual experience of menopause, because, you know, You can have two people sitting beside each other in the same work environment and they can be having two completely different, different symptoms.

Yeah, completely. Um, so, you know, I think having the guidance documents there, I think that's huge. And, you know, certainly we were the very first country in the world who did a national awareness campaign around menopause. Um, other countries have brought out guidances. But, you know, I think we're, we're definitely Up there, there's so many countries that are behind in terms of the conversation.

So, and I think, I think looking at both, I suppose the, the overall information and awareness elements, um, real supports in the workplace, but also then very tangible health supports as well. And recognizing for, uh, for many women, hopefully for most, most women, menopause won't be a health issue. It'll, it'll be just, you know, an issue that, that, that, that occurs in their life.

But for a number of women, uh, it can be a health issue and quite a significant one as well. And I think that's why, and recognizing the, um, I suppose the, the, the complexity of it. It's a small number of women, thankfully, but the complexity of symptoms that they face and having those real tangible and specialized services in terms of the menopause clinics.

Yeah, and I think like if you look, you know, particularly like. When we talk about the symptoms, if you look at, I did a menopause in the workplace survey and the top symptom, the number one symptom that women will say impacts in their work and it's brain fog. And we know if you look outside of the workplace, it's the one symptom.

So many women will say to me, give me a hot flush, night sweats any day over kind of the psychological symptoms of menopause. And I think that's where, you know, certainly for Uh, women who have comorbidities where it's more complex, you know, the public clinics are fantastic, um, help and support. I think the other area where I would find a lot of employers now and I would be a huge advocate of is the employee assistance programs.

Because if you have, and psychological challenges, be it brain fog, anxiety or whatever it is, they can be a great benefit as well. Um, and you know, I know that, you know, in the UK as well, there will be great supporters of kind of just sometimes, you know, it's having somebody else to talk to maybe outside your circle that kind of, you know, can bring some support.

And I'm sure for, for, for many women experiencing it, even to, to admit to it. to, to brain fog is, uh, I suppose there's a fear maybe around indicating I'm, I'm not performing up to my, my, my, my best at the moment. What are they going to say? Is this going to impact on, you know, promotion or, you know, so I like, again, opening the space where it's okay to say that.

link it to, you know, the physical change that you're experiencing right now and say, this is clearly as a result of that, it's not because I'm working any less hard or any less dedicated to the company, uh, and creating the space where that can be said safely, I think is really valuable. Oh, so important, isn't it?

Because like, I don't know if you've seen my TEDx, but I spoke about my own experience. I, I was a director in investment banking for over 20 years. So, And one of my real big wake up calls with perimenopause was I was presenting senior management over from New York. I was so used to it, Roderick, I could do it in my sleep.

But this one particular day I was in perimenopause and I was kind of, okay, I'm going to push this aside. I'm going to get on with my career. But the brain fog just, it was, I mean, it just came out of nowhere. And I, I remember I left and at the time I was working back in Ireland and I, out in Central Park and I just left that meeting and I was like, my head's down.

I was mortified, the embarrassment. And then what I found was after that. before any meeting, I overprepared and I was so anxious. So it was a lot of my own experience that kind of, you know, really led me to, you know, very much to just shine a light around menopause that the impact it has in work, but also the fact that there's so much more than hot flushes.

I always kind of say they're the tip of the iceberg and it's kind of, as you go deeper, you know, there's a lot in there because If we look at, at work, if your brain fog, um, if you're suffering symptoms of that, that then that triggers anxiety, but it also impacts your self esteem, your confidence. And that's what we would see that so many women going through anywhere from peri and into post menopause will suffer a real drop in confidence.

they're struggling, particularly at work. And I think, again, creating that awareness, that understanding of the range of symptoms, the range, range of impacts of menopause will hopefully, probably won't happen immediately, but over time, um, maybe lessen the, lessen the, the stigma, lessen the mystique, lessen the stigmatization, and hopefully then maybe lessen the impact on, uh, on women in terms of self esteem and the like.

Yeah, yeah, big time. And I think like, you know, I love that word mystique because it is just getting rid of that, isn't it? And for me, the way I always kind of think about it is, you know, not every woman either by choice or circumstance will go through pregnancy. Um, every woman will go through menopause and you can't avoid it.

You can't skirt it. I know they, they did talk a year or two ago in the US about, you know, a medication that might bypass menopause, but it's a natural, inevitable stage of life. And you know, the key thing is, is knowing that once you get a handle on your symptoms, that then you can set yourself up and then look at the opportunities of menopause.

And I think that's, for me, that's a very important part of the conversation in the workplace is, you know, support from your employer, um, and trusted sources, but then it's also understanding that this is a whole new chapter in your life. And you often find for many women wants to get a handle on the symptoms and everything.

They want something new and maybe to, maybe it might be investing more in your career. It might be that now maybe your kids have grown up and maybe they've left home or now could simply be, you might have younger kids too. So, you know, I guess you're trying to. Um, manage everything with the sandwich years at the same time, right?

You know, the kids, parents, and you're kind of. And look, and I suppose that's where, where those kind of wider range of supports that the government are working on, whether it's the introduction of a remote working or flexible working additional parents leave and things like that. I think we're, we're very conscious or, or, well, we're becoming, we're trying to become more conscious of the need to support parents and, and both parents.

And I think that's probably part of that wider conversation too. support and empower dads to say, actually, no, I have seven weeks now, soon to be nine weeks, parents leave, and I'm going to take it. And my, uh, work, my workplace should be as willing to grant that as it's to grant, you know, my, my wife and my partner, her, her 26 weeks, um, uh, maternity leave.

Yeah, which is brilliant, isn't it? I mean, so, so progressive. Um, like I remember when I, so I worked at an American bank and I mean, my Lord, they used to be so jealous of us because and that was just with our normal leave. So, I mean, it is, it is fantastic. And I think, you know, sorry, I think with Ireland, there's so many aspects we'd be so proud of.

so much we've achieved, you know, I think that wider discussion will be having on care in the next few months in the context of the referendum, you know, the removal of that article in the constitution that states that a woman has duties in the home, uh, the removal of that, uh, but it's replacement with something that recognizes the value of care done in the family, irrespective of it being done by moms or dads, sons or daughters.

But also, you know, placing an onus on government to support care care. Yeah. Because I, I know, I suppose as a constituency politician, when you are going around knocking on doors, you meet so many, um, families where, you know, there's a maybe a child with a disability or elderly parents where, uh, um, a, a, a parent, a sibling, uh, um, is, is is giving so much care and I think we all recognize the state needs to do more to support that situation.

Yeah. 'cause they are. taking, you know, a very, uh, an incredibly important piece of work and not leaving it for the state. It's being done there. And I think that is the conversation that we've been having over the last number of years in terms of, um, women's place in, in, in, in the workforce, women's place in society, kind of knocking away some of the shackles that still existed in terms of maybe the, the, the eighth amendment and the like also has to be looked at in the, in the context of.

The vast majority of care still being done by women in our society and the importance of changing that that conversation. But I do think there are changes happening there. I certainly know among I'm not a dad myself, but a lot of my my male friends are our dads in the last few years. I think there's a far greater just.

Expectation and just acceptance that, yeah, we have to do a significant portion of the, of the care and our wives, our partners want to be able to go back to work after, after their maternity, after maybe that first year, and that there is an expectation that the, the, the care role is maybe more shared than, than, you know, in, in my parents generation.

Yeah. And I I I I I Yeah. Probably live and prove for that because when there was stages when say, you know, my career in the bank would have been quite intensive and my husband took a year or two out and he stayed at home with the kids and then I took a year or two out and I stayed at home. So I think, uh, you know, I think, I think.

It is the way society is going. And I think we just need that kind of equilibrium, isn't it? It's just, you know, that the support can come from whoever. And I guess a large part now we also know with, with, with women and with men as well, but primarily women is the aging parents. And it's like I said, it's those sandwich years, which, you know, again, when if you're going through menopause and you're tackling that and then you have all of the other obligations and responsibilities, it can put such a toll on a person's experience, you know, and it's, it becomes another stress.

And so I think, you know, supports, supports in that area, you know, they're, they're so important. Um, and if we look, if we look at the progression, that we have made in Ireland. Why do you think we are, and I know we've made it on many fronts, but why, why do you think we are so open now to, you know, tackling women's health and being so progressive compared to many, many other countries?

Yeah. Well, I think part of it is that for so long, um, we, uh, we, we were. Late, we were slow in terms of the, you know, improvement of the status of women in Irish society. And really, you know, you see are joining the European Union, the European economic community, as it was in the early 70s. That was a really important element.

Like it was only then that the marriage bar for women in the civil service was removed, which, you know, You know, it's still just incredible to me. Like I, I'm in a department where a majority of our, you know, assistant secretaries, we actually, we did, you know, the gender pay gap reporting. We're the only department that has a gender pay gap in favor of women rather than favor of men, just because we've so many women at kind of those, the upper levels in the department and just the idea that.

All of them would be gone if, you know, under that old system of the marriage bar. It's just, it's just, it's unthinkable to me. So we made that change then. Um, and I suppose in the last number of years, recognizing, um, I suppose the, the legacy of mother and baby homes and just recognizing the extent to which the role of women and particularly unmarried women was so marginalized in our society.

I think there's maybe the, Yeah. The counterpoint to that is that recognition now that we really need to do more, whether it's in terms of the workplace, whether it's in terms of health supports, whether it's in terms of safety, and that's certainly in terms of the work, the domestic violence leave that I've brought in, the work Minister McEntee has been doing in terms of the third national strategy on domestic violence, setting up a domestic violence agency, the specifically dedicated to tackling, uh, DSGBV in our society.

I think we have taken, uh, some, some really important steps. I think the unions have been important. I think, I think activist groups have been important. I think women, um, I suppose within politics have been important as well. And I do think the campaign around repeal was very significant as well as it allowed.

Uh, allowed a lot of very brave women shared their stories where, where they had a termination and I suppose just created a much more, a raw, a more raw conversation about women's health and the decisions that, that, that women have to make in, in, in many circumstances and, um, that has, I think, opened the space where those previously might have been considered awkward or just, um, um, I don't want to say unpleasant, but maybe what was considered an embarrassing conversation by a lot of men about issues like menopause, like menstruation is easier to have now.

Yeah. Yeah. Uh, and I think, like, I know, um, the Stop the Stigma campaign, which, uh, the, the, the nine coalition unions. I mean, you know, that's a fantastic piece of work in relation to menstruation and menopause and, and, and um, in the workplace. And I do think, you know, like you say there, there's, there's so many, I guess, different interwoven paths that have come together to really highlight women's health.

And I, you know, and I, I think the, the, um, the, you know, the, the changes in relation to domestic abuse, I mean, that's life changing. for life changing for people who are, you know, unfortunately in those circumstances, and you know, that's a very, very challenging subject to bring into into your life, but even into the workplace.

So, you know, I think that that is, you know, will be hugely beneficial. And I do remember I was part of the Green Party team that negotiated the current program for government and We were very clear. We got that line in that there's an epidemic of domestic violence in Irish society, and it was very important for us in terms of setting out on, you know, three, four, five year government to call that out at the start and let that influence.

And that's why we have the third national strategy. We've got the commitment to double refuge spaces. We've got the domestic violence leave that I've brought in through my own department. Um, but I think it flows from recognizing a very real. problem. I think COVID, if it's one of the few positives of COVID is that there was that focus and that recognition that women who are at risk and children who are at risk were at even greater risk during that period.

And that conversation about that has actually been sustained. And subsequent to, to, to, to COVID, you know, lessening as a, as a public health issue. Yeah. And I, you know, and I think COVID like, you know, it helped in that respect. It also helped in relation to menopause. I mean, many women will say the relief of working at home, you know, you can open a window for your temperature because when, when a standard temperature control levels were set were based on the male body, they weren't based on the female body.

Another thing. Um, you know, my husband can be going around in a t shirt and I'm still there with my coat on. You know, so it's, it's, and again, within our department, we've legislated for, for flexible work and remote work and flexible work is, is related to, um, to, to parents and carers. Remote work is, is, is available now to all workers and, uh, you know, uh, early in, in 2024.

Those the, um, the, um, codes of conduct from the Workplace Relations Commission will have been written, and those two new forms of flexible, uh, you know, kind of working arrangements will be available, uh, to parents, but also to all workers as well. And I think that again is, you know, the fact that that can happen and can happen quite easily for a very large number of employers.

Not everyone may accept that, but for a very large number, um, is, is another. you know, positive that we can take from those, those difficult, those difficult months and years with COVID. Yeah, yeah, for sure. Yeah. And I guess we're in a whole new workplace now, um, since COVID. And you know, I think that's, I think that's still kind of all bedding down, but I, you know, in ways like changes like that, we add to it.

And I think certainly for, you know, many women, you know, particularly with menstruation, if you have heavy periods, if you've endometriosis, any of this, I mean, the ability to work from home, it just takes pressure off because you can think when you're going to bed, actually, if I'm really bad tomorrow, it's okay.

I can work from home. And, and my employer knows I can do my job 100 percent working from home. And I think that's one thing that, um, I know a lot of people have. Women would have been more nervous about, you know, maybe, you know, Oh God, maybe, you know, it'll, it will impact how I'm perceived. Just like you mentioned earlier, it's, you know, one of the things, particularly when you look at brain fog is the concern, and it can be a very valid, valid concern, depending on the workplace you're in, is that it might prevent you getting opportunities.

And I think that's where the more we have the conversation, the more, um, Everyone is brought in on part of that conversation, the more that we make that normal. Roderick, when I go into workplaces, and I generally now, every single talk I'll do, it will be mixed. So, and the majority of men will say at the end of it, I never had a clue.

I didn't understand. I thought it was just hot flushes. I thought it was just maybe moods. So when you can bring that spotlight to actually understand there's so much more going on here and you find the majority of men, they all want to help, you know, and, and which is fabulous. And it's little steps, you know, at work, outside of work can make such a difference to someone's experience as, as you go through menopause.

It's all about just. shattering the taboo and just making it normal. I, um, I have three boys. Um, so, you know, they're, you know, I, we don't naturally talk about periods and things, but my Lord, these three guys, like, I mean, they, they, they have that biology chapter done. So, you know, I'm always kind of saying to them, you know, it, it will stand to them because understanding, you know, the fact that they can, my, I, my youngest who's 11, like he'll just talk about menopause.

It's like normal. You know, you talk about periods and it's normal and, you know, I think that's just a great gift that we can kind of share with each other, you know, Um, in, in relation to supporting menopause, um, in the workplace, what would you say, you know, would your advice be to employers who are looking to to maybe they're literally, you know, thinking, where do I start?

What do I do? Where do I start? Look, I hope to be able to answer that question in some significant detail later on in 2024, when our research is published and our policy templates are there. I think, um, Engage, as I say, the many of the trade unions have been looking at this issue, have been talking to their their members, their female members in terms of what supports they want.

So I think a conversation there is useful, but I think just talk to your, um, to, to, to your female workforce, indicate you want to hear what are the challenges that they face in their particular job and recognizing that workplaces are dramatically different. The issues may be dramatically as well, or as, or what, what the.

What the employer can do may be quite different across workplaces. There are some workplaces, obviously, where the option of remote working, working at home from a day where someone's having a heavy period, simply, it's just not, not possible, particularly in a lot of the service industry. So, what are the other things that can be, can be put in place that will make, uh, some kind of mitigation of the particular symptoms that, uh, that, that someone's facing?

I love that. I really love that because when you do that and you go out to your colleagues, your employees, then you're, you're on the first step to a supportive, collaborative relationship and discussion around menopause, which, you know, I think is, is so important. And I think in most workplaces, the fact that they see an employer.

asking this question and how, and, but it's, it's, it's asking the question and making a meaningful response. I think when they see that, that, that in itself is a really, uh, it's a really valuable statement and a statement of the values of that particular workplace. Yeah. It's, it's like, it's not a tick box.

It has to be. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, look, You know, I mean, have some workplaces done it as a tick box? Unfortunately, some have, I will say the majority I've worked with they're in it for longevity and like there's, there's many that I've worked with for a couple of years now because they're looking at covering it.

all different angles, which I think is is brilliant. And look, I think there's more that government can look at as well. You know, over the last period, as you know, we've we've removed, let's say, I think we've reduced fat on HRT, for example. But my colleague, Senator Pauline O'Reilly, she's been suggesting that maybe we look at making that free, making it available under, under, under, um, you know, as a free medicine, under other, under medical cards and other schemes.

And obviously there's a cost to that, but there, I think she certainly, um, analyzed that there's actually a saving in terms of, you know, having that, that. That's a necessary intervention early. So I think you know that's something and I know it's something Pauline will be will be bringing up kind of coming towards next year's next year's budget, but looking at those those initiatives I think is is really valuable and I think the government this government has shown.

good form, I think, on the health side and on the employment side. Uh, but I think it's important that we, we continue to advance and continue to make progress. Yeah, no, I, I think any steps around HRT will certainly, um, be welcomed. And I, I think, you know, for me, I, I'm a huge advocate for our young women, like from the teens onwards to go through early menopause.

So I think, you know, if we can, when, if we get to that stage, They, you know, if they're top priority, I think it's so important because if you're buying HRT at the age of 12, all the way through up to the age of 50, that's very expensive, you know, and, and, you know, unfortunately for those girls, they don't get it.

get any special treatment and really, you know, they should because, you know, nobody wants menopause at the age of 11 or 12, you know, but it's a, it's just one of the, you know, I guess the many different early forms of menopause. And I think that's where that diversity and inclusion part is so important, you know, because again, in the workplace, certainly we know with the younger girls, the, The rates, um, back in 2017, we would have said it was 1 percent of the population.

The current statistics tell us it's 2. 5 percent and unfortunately increasing, which is just so sad, you know, because it's, it's very, um, it's very challenging. Um, Roderick, thanks so much. We've, we've covered tons and you know, I, as I said, I'm, I just, I'm, it's really. uplifting, inspiring to see the, you know, the passion that's coming in relation to women's health and changing women's health.

So, you know, certainly, you know, on my behalf and also, you know, all my followers and listeners, I would just say, you know, thank you for the work that you're doing. And I think thank you for looking at menopause in the workplace, because this is we can't shy away from this. We've got to make sure. that we don't lose the valuable wisdom that so many women have who might struggle for a couple of years at work.

So we have to hold them through that as employers, as workplaces. And I think, you know, all the help we can get from the government in relation to that, um, is to be welcomed. Absolutely. And look, I suppose, uh, I also need to thank yourself and those who are advocating on this issue from someone who has, I suppose, such a, such a strong platform as yourself to people in, in workplaces, to people in, in, in unions who've been very clear in terms of, of, of, uh, starting that conversation and breaking that stigma.

And it, it makes it easier for, for politicians, but it also makes it easier for men generally. to engage in this, this, this conversation to remove that mystique and look to bring in those very practical supports, uh, in, in a workplace setting. And those, I, uh, I suppose, very significant supports in terms of, of health where it's necessary as well.

Great. Thanks a million. Thank you. Really appreciate you having me on. Oh, you're very welcome. Thank you. Thank you for listening to menopause uprising with me, your host Catherine O'Keefe. I really hope you enjoyed this week's episode. Don't forget to like, subscribe, rate and review as it really helps the show.