Balancing Menopause: Nurturing Your Gut Health

Today on the Menopause Uprising Podcast we have Dr. Harriët Schellekens talking about all things gut health in menopause and it's not as complicated as you think!

Dr. Harriët Schellekens is a Lecturer in the Department of Anatomy & Neuroscience and a Principal Investigator with Food for Health Ireland (FHI) and within the APC Microbiome Institute. She received a PhD in Pharmacy from the University College Cork, Ireland and a MSc in Biology and Medical Biology (Hons) from the Radboud University in Nijmegen, The Netherlands. 

We talk about The influence of gut microbiota on hormone regulation. Dietary and lifestyle choices that support hormonal balance during menopause and the role of probiotics and prebiotics in nurturing your gut health.

Transcript -Automatically Generated

Welcome to Menopause Uprising, the Wellness Warrior podcast with me, your host, Catherine O'Keeffe. Today's episode, I'm chatting to Harriet Skelligans from ABC Micros Biome in UCC in Cork. We're talking about bacteria. Viruses, the importance of gut health, and here's a new word for you, food hangovers. I hope you enjoy today's session and this new way of thinking about food and the impact food has on stress levels and your day to day lifestyle.

I think many of you know that I'm obsessed with food. I certainly talk about food a lot and I've had a huge interest. in the whole aspect of the gut microbiome and Harriet, this is your everyday passion working with gut health. For everyone listening, can you just give us, you know, a little bit of background into, you know, what, what is gut health?

What is the microbiome? Because we hear that word a lot and I think we may not be familiar with what exactly it means. Sure. Thanks so much, Catherine. It's a pleasure and delighted to be here and talking to you. Yeah, we really, really live in a microbial world. We have, uh, around us in our environment, but also on and in our bodies, we have trillions of microbial species, but also viruses and other organisms that we have From our evolution, uh, from an evolutionary perspective in our evolutionary history have grown up with and we wouldn't not be able to, um, fulfill some of the functions on our physiology without the gut microbiota in our gut.

We actually have more microbes in and on us than there are stars in the Milky Way. Wow. Exactly. There's so many. It's, it's, it's fast and, and not a lot of people, uh, maybe many people have heard about gut microbiota and the microbiota that live in your gut, but nobody really realizes how many that actually is.

And it isn't only bacteria, it's also viruses. And what do they do for us? Well, you know, from an evolutionary perspective, as I said, they have helped us break down, uh, tough plant fibers. Um, and they were able to make vitamins as well, but we know now that their role really goes beyond digestion alone. So they're not only there to break down tough plant fibers, they, in, from a metabolic perspective, they can actually help us store fat or alter the way we store fat and they help us balance blood glucose, uh, as well.

decade has shown one of the most amazing surprising findings is that our microbes do not only have an effect on our physiology and our metabolic health, but they also shape brain and behavior. And they do this in A so called bi directional communication that we have termed the gut brain axis or the microbial gut brain axis.

So they are kind of the vehicles for our gut brain connection. And they're not only there to digest our plant fibers, but certain metabolites maybe that they are secreting can have more profound effects and perhaps even reach the brain or some of these metabolites can activate. The nerves that we have in our gut that signal through our brain, there's this really long nerves called the vagus nerve and, um, studies have shown that if you, um, effects positive effects of microbiota, if you sever this nerve that these positive effects are no longer there.

But what we're trying to investigate is, uh, the mechanisms by which the microbiota communicates with our brain. And when we, when we look at that, like, if you go back to, I think it was Aristotle who kind of said, you know, food is your medicine. So, like, that is what we're, what it goes back to really, isn't it?

Because what you're putting into your body and putting into your gut, like, it does have an impact, not just locally in your gut, but now, like, from the research, as you mentioned, it has an impact in how you feel. Absolutely. And all of these, uh, ancient Greeks have had, uh, were great in, in, in describing this already with things that we're only investigating now.

I believe it was Hippocrates who said, indeed, like, let food be their medicine. Um, now this is not a hundred percent correct because food is food is medicine is medicine. We do need medicine and we can't replace medicine by food, but it's becoming so clear that indeed what we eat has, it's not only a few.

Uh, it, it is there, uh, to make us feel healthy. And if we eat bad foods, we don't feel healthy. And especially myself, as well as I grow older, these effects are more pronounced. Um, I've heard people say, um, You know, when they're a few years older than me, or if I eat really, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, chips and fish and chips, I feel terrible the next day.

I didn't know what they were talking about when I was young, but when I eat fish and chips now or something really greasy or fatty or salty, I do notice it the next day. And we know now that your microbes, uh, have a role to play in. the effects of food on your mood. So this is, um, something that we'll be investigating, uh, where I work, which is APC Microbiome Ireland at University College Cork.

And we're investigating how microbes interact with the host and what the mechanisms are, um, within this gut brain axis, and also how this changes across the lifespan. So why is it that young people have less of these food hangovers than you have when you get older? Absolutely. And of course, from, speech and from talking to each other, we know about this gut brain connection, uh, already a lot longer.

I mean, we have expressions where we say, uh, I'm gutted or I have butterflies in my tummy, or trust your gut. We know instinctively that if we ha that there is a connection between our gut and our brain, in addition to food hangovers, if you eat bad food, you might feel bad the next day. If you're stressed.

A lot of people who are stressed, uh, which is regulated via the brain, they also feel, um, often have gastrointestinal symptoms. So there is really a strong link between, uh, what happens in your gut and what happens in, in, in your brain. And, um, it is becoming more and more clear that the microbes really are the vehicles of this gut brain connection.

And when you talk about microbes, is that where we get into the realm of the prebiotics and probiotics, or are we talking about something else? Well, first of all, what we're trying to do with ABC Microbiome Ireland is investigating, uh, and understanding the role of microbes in disease, uh, so, but also in health.

Um, When we understand what microbes do for us, uh, depending on our nutrients, uh, we can, of course, also, uh, use this to target the microbiota to give us the best possible, um, outcomes on metabolic and mental health, uh, patients. We can investigate the microbiota to try and prevent these diseases and, um, one avenue that we're taking is indeed looking at microbes themselves as for their therapeutic value, which you can term probiotics.

But a lot of the probiotics, so probiotics are live bacteria. that you ingest in the hope that they have some function that you're not having at that moment with your own microbiota that may make you feel better, that may improve your metabolism or in relation to microbes that can indeed communicate with the brain, which are.

Okay. Um, two of my colleagues, Professor Ted Dinan and Professor John Kryan have termed psychobiotics. So these are probiotics that will actually, um, through maybe secretion of neuroactives, um, will have a profound effect on your brain, which can be anywhere from reducing stress Uh, to improving cognition, uh, and improving, uh, social, um, interaction and behavior as well.

And I know in, um, in their, the book, they, the Psychobiotic Revolution, which is just amazing. It's a fantastic read for anyone who wants to delve into it further. But when you talk about some of those, uh, probiotics, then that can help. What are some of the practical ones, Harriet, that, you know, someone, you know, are there some practical ones that someone can put in their shopping trolley in a weekly basis that we know will help?

Or what would you say in relation to that? This is a very simple question, which will have a very complicated answer. Because We are really in the microbial, we live really in a microbial world and the last decade has seen an enormous expansion in our knowledge about what we know about microbes, but it is still very early on.

We're just learning about what microbes are actually doing, how they're interacting with, with the host. What their mechanisms of action are, and if they indeed have a specific effect on the host that then are on humans that then have a benefit on on your mental well being, or if it is metabolized that they're secreting that it can directly improve brain function, or is it through the vagus nerve?

Like I said earlier, so it is. We're very early days and I know everyone, hearing about gut microbiota thinks, okay, just tell me what to take and I'll do it. But if something isn't broken, you don't need to fix it. A lot of the microbiota that are on the market now, while we know that some bifidobacteria or lactobacillus, that these are generally considered as beneficial species, they have not been investigated in detail enough to know what they would do, um, and how they would benefit you.

So, there's no, um, benefit in just, um, Take in a probiotic for the sake of it. Your first avenue should always be, okay, healthy eating. What we do know, and what we do know really, where we have strong evidence for, is that the more diverse your microbiota is, the more healthy it is. So I always align it with the analogy of a village.

You know, if you have a village, you need a supermarket, you need a school, you need a hospital, you need a doctor, you need taxis. Um, But you don't need 20 taxis. You don't need 20 schools. You need. enough of each. Um, if your microbiota is very diverse, it usually can buffer if one particular species is no longer there.

It, we have to view the microbiota as not as who is there, but more, what are they doing? And certain species can do the same things. Um, and if you would have, um, um, a dysregulated microbiota. So say you have a microbiota that is not as diverse as a microbiota of someone else, then you may have a benefit of taking probiotics and increasing that diversity again.

But one thing that affects your microbiota more than anything else is your diet. So if you eat a varied diet, So you give, because when you eat, you don't only feed yourself, you are feeding in effect your microbiota. So if you eat a diverse diet, with how nature intended it, lots of vegetables, high fiber food, fermented foods, you can think of as well.

But a diverse diet, how nature intended it, then you do the best thing possible for your microbiota. If you have a very, uh, or if you have a simple diet that's not diverse, Uh, that then you may, and you have gastrointestinal symptoms and you have, you struggle with stress, for instance. One of the first things you should consider is, okay, what's my diet?

Is my diet varied? Am I eating healthy enough? Am I giving the right few for my microbes to make me better or make me as healthy as I can possibly be? And if that's not the case, and if your diet is Um, even if you increase the diversity of your diet and you know, for instance, that you're prone to stress, then a probiotic can definitely, um, uh, help here.

But if there's, like I said, at the start, if it's not broken, uh, you don't need to fix it. And you certainly shouldn't be taking probiotics just for the sake of it, because you think it's gonna, um, uh, help you. Look at diet first. Yeah, and one of the, one of the things that many, um, women in menopause will experience is the, is stress is number one, but also the psychological aspects of menopause where there's mood changes.

Um, you know, it can be mild depression, it can be more severe depression and different psychological aspects can happen. And I think. You know, everything you're saying ties back to what I firmly believe in terms of the importance of managing stress and being mindful of stress in your life. But also one of the key starting points is your diet.

And I know, um, I think it's Dr. Rangan Chatterjee who coined the term of eating the rainbow. And it's like you mentioned that diversity, having that diversity in place so that you are creating that community like that village, um, that you mentioned is so important. Absolutely. This eating the rainbow. And now that we're learning more about our microbiota and what they thrive on, uh, and you often hear it.

Again and again is fiber. We as a Western society have significantly reduced our intake of fiber on a daily basis. Uh, and this would be very good for everyone consciously to, to increase their intake of fiber. Because the fiber is what, uh, we cannot, um, um, digest ourselves. This is, uh, undigested fibers.

And these will be, uh, fermented by our microbiota, which will allow these microbiota to, uh, secrete all these metabolites that have such, um, or that we know some metabolites have an. positive impact on our, um, gastrointestinal health, as well as our mental health, such as short chain fatty acids. Uh, and these are the mechanisms we're, we're learning more about.

And it's interesting that you mentioned menopause. Um, when we're in the menopause, we're all a little bit more, um, prone to gaining some weight. around our, our mid. And, um, that's a big one as well as, uh, managing, uh, stress and, and mood, uh, changes. And one of the, um, discoveries that me and my colleagues, uh, Professor Stanton, Kryan and Dinan, uh, have, uh, Um, published on, uh, last year was the identification of one particular bifidobacterium longum strain.

Uh, this was an APC 1472, that's the name, it doesn't matter, but there was a bif longum. We will find that in the supermarket. Not, not yet anyway. This was, um, a strain that we identified, um, that had. beneficial effects on both metabolic and mental health in, uh, individuals who were overweight and individuals who were obese.

So what we showed when we, um, gave overweight and, uh, obese individuals, this, uh, strain. So we supplemented, uh, they were on a normal diet and we, uh, supplemented with this strain for about, uh, 12 weeks. And it was a crossover design. And we saw that, um, this significantly lowered their fasting levels of glucose.

Uh, which is, is, is positive. Uh, now these individuals weren't diabetic, but it may suggest that it would be, um, beneficial in the diabetic population as well to lower blood glucose. But what was really surprising that the supplementation with this strain also lowered the cortisol awakening response. And in humans, cortisol is the stress hormone.

Yeah, yeah. And if we want to measure stress responsiveness in humans, one of the main, uh, experiments or tests that we perform is measuring what are your cortisol levels when you just woken up. Um, for people who have, um, a higher stress level. Um, levels often this is very high and we showed in these obese, uh, and overweight individuals that supplementation with this strain was able to lower the cortisol awakening response.

So suggesting that it could have beneficial effects on managing stress as well. And this is one of the first strains that has shown again, that connection between improving metabolic health and improving mental health. through your microbiota. Okay. That's really exciting, isn't it? Absolutely. Yes. And, um, so we're further investigating, uh, this strain, um, um, for, for its potential to, for instance, also, um, maybe modulate eating, modulate eating behavior.

Um, if we're talking about obesity and, uh, and being overweight. Often what you're told is, okay, just exercise more and eat less. Yeah. We're realizing it's not as simple as that's not, no, it's not at all, particularly in menopause. It's not and it won't help either. And it's very hard for people, uh, to, um, to adhere to diets, but we know now that, um, being overweight and obese is much more a disease of, um, uh, hormonal disease or, uh, neuroendocrine disease.

And, um, it's not as simple as just, you know, eating, eating less and exercising more, but also. If you are, um, overweight or obese, this could be an environmental risk factor for psychiatric, uh, disorders. And, um, you're more prone to defects of stress. Yeah. Uh, for instance. It is really interesting because if you're stressed as well and without being obese, so just looking at stress, We all are familiar with the feeling of being stressed and reaching for a cookie jar and reaching for the quick fix, especially during the COVID pandemic.

I mean, the combination of Burnout and, uh, um, being, being at home as we increased, uh, or overeating and, um, the combination of, um, burnout and overeating has put many people at, at higher risk for metabolic disorders and obesity, but also mental health, uh, issues and, and stress related issues. And it's so interesting to see that, okay, I mean, you have acute stress, maybe you don't want to eat, you know, you just want to run away, but stress over a longer period of time will increase the intake of high caloric foods from an evolutionary perspective.

Again, this will release dopamine in our brain and, uh, will, will, um, make us feel better for, for, for a little while. But of course, if we're doing this for the long term, then these stress induced changes in eating behavior. can drive obesity again as well. And if you're obese, so it's kind of this vicious circle.

You're obese, uh, your, um, the pleasure you get from food has been shown to be reduced. So you want to eat more and more of it. And if you're stressed, you want to eat more of these high caloric foods. So you get more dopamine. And, uh, then if you're stressed and you change your eating to eat these types of food, you increase your risk for becoming obese.

And if you are overweight, you increase your. risk for stress induced changes in eating behavior. So it's really this triangulating interaction between stress and eating and being obese. And we know that food changes your microbiome, but nobody is investigating or has investigated so far the effects of microbiota on stress induced Uh, eating, or we know that microbiota play a role in glucose homeostasis, uh, and in metabolic processes.

We know that the microbiota can play a role in how, uh, in our stress reactivity, but we're not investigating yet how, um, what the role is for microbiota in stress induced eating in obesity. And in my lab, I hypothesize that if. Your, um, that your microbe, or in my lab, I hypothesize that our microbiota may make us more vulnerable for these stress induced changes in eating behavior that can drive obesity.

And, and you know, Harriet, that all ties in, it just ties in so much with, with so many scenarios you can run through when you look at menopause. So if we take a really typical one, right, where Um, you know, a woman may not sleep well, it could be due to night sweats, or it could be due to ongoing stress. And when you wake up the next morning, generally your food choices, you're going to rush for the quick fix.

You might be rushing out the door, or you're rushing on to a Zoom, you're exhausted due to lack of sleep, and you're not, you, you know, you may not be picking. And the most healthiest food and you are getting that quick fix again. And like you said, it becomes that vicious circle. That's a scenario that I would see on a daily basis with women.

And I often say that, you know, when it comes to menopause. I really feel that stress exasperates so many of the symptoms of, of menopause because you know, it's not just impacting one aspect of life, it's not just impacting your digestion, it's impacting your sleep, your anxiety levels, etc. You know, so it's a, it's profound, I think.

And, and with what we're learning about how the microbiota is involved and potential role for the microbiota in all these effects, including sleep and metabolic health throughout life, but also in the period of menopause. And then the interaction of stress, poor dietary choices, uh, which will just set you up for, uh, increasing the, uh, these issues and, and, and making it harder to solve these issues.

So what we're learning about the microbiota now, uh, the aim, or the hope here is that, uh, We can give solutions for, um, for these real problems and have an additional solution, um, which may well, um, set you up better for making the right choices, making the right food choices and making it easier for you to, uh, make healthy food choices and, and, uh, increase your healthy eating and lower your stress.

Because if you're stressed, You, there's an impact on your cognition and you're more like in your impulsivity and you're more likely to make these wrong choices for quick fixes. And when you look at the, when you look at the wrong choices, what are some of the big ones for you that you think really stand out in relation to, you know, foods that you can just, you know, grab that aren't, you know, they're not going to have any positive impact in relation to your, to your gut health.

Thanks. Well, the worst is, um, high processed foods, the ready foods. Um, and this is, of course, convenience. Um, and which will give us a high dopamine hit, uh, but it will do nothing for our bodies or our microbiome nutrition wise. And if you are prone to stress and you are prone to maybe making more unhealthier choices on a regular basis, um, I think you have to try.

much harder to consciously make healthy choices and really, again, look at your diet. If your diet is diverse, the rainbow diet, your microbiota will be very healthy and you will have a much better chance to break the vicious cycle of stress and anxiety. Eating. Obesity. Stress. Eating. Low mood. Um, Yeah. Yeah.

And, and when you look at that, like one big one that comes up a lot in, in menopause, and look, we all do it at certain stages is the nighttime snacking. And you can often find that, you know, maybe you've had a tough day, you know, you're juggling menopause life, work, et cetera. And, you know, by the time do um, uh, you know, hit the couch and turn on the Netflix, you're kind of feeling, okay, I need a little reward here.

And you know, it can often be that, again, you might just go for the snack and that's, that's one area that, um, I find it can just become, it becomes such a habit to, you know, break open the crisps, the bar of chocolate or whatever. And I always kind of say, you know, It's understanding number one, that it's a habit, and then it's trying to look at is there, if you really want to eat something and you're hungry, you know, what else can you put in there that might be more nutritious?

Like some, you know, unsalted and nuts and seeds and things like that, that might be kind of more beneficial than, you know, again, hitting, hitting the kind of the quick fix as such, you know, I call it the second dinner. You know, a lot, uh, especially, uh, mothers as well. Um, I have three children and I, breakfast is something that I've rarely have anymore since I've had children.

Um, and life is so busy cause you have to balance your own work commitments with, um, your commitments as, as a mother, uh, being taxi. Driving them to all the after school activities and then cooking and your, your household cleaning. And then when you do finally hit the Netflix and the couch, uh, probably when you were eating and you were at a dinner table, tried to have a family dinner, um, you, you are lucky or, well, my children are still very small, but I don't really get a chance to eat much

Um, I have to get more ketchup or someone, uh. is fighting with a brother or sister. Um, that's normal. That's every family. And the problem is then that I don't consciously eat. So I'm, dinner's finished. I'm tidying up. I didn't even realize that I had dinner. So I'm going to sit down on the couch and call it my second dinner.

There's a little bit left. I'm going to now. Relax. Eat this. It's my reward. And then that becomes a habit, but I have found a trick and because I've skipped breakfast and we need to have higher fiber, um, and often breakfast, like you were saying it yourself, nuts, um, or, um, the wheat bakes, uh, uh, increase in fiber, uh, can be done at breakfast time.

But because I break, skip breakfast, um, I've now gotten into the habit to eat my muesli and my yogurt. Thank you. when I sit on the couch after my dinner. So I eat my breakfast when everyone is tucked in in bed, my kitchen is clean, and then I eat my breakfast when I turn on my Netflix. So I have, uh, at least healthier than the bar.

Uh, it is still a nighttime, um, eating habit, but at least then it's healthier and, uh, increase my intake of fiber at the same time. Yeah, yeah. And I think, I mean, um, I'm, I, I could not function. I can tell you, I wouldn't last half an hour without my breakfast. I'm a, breakfast to me is, I guess it's nearly the most important meal of the day.

I probably put more thought into my breakfast than I do any other meal. I love it. I love breakfast and breakfast is so important. Yeah. So I think, you know, it just differs and I definitely find that, you know, when it comes to blood sugar levels throughout the day, particularly look at any stage, but particularly when you're in menopause, it's really kind of, it can change a day when you do have a good nutritious breakfast, like, you know, your oats or, you know, with your nuts and seeds and things like that.

You know, it just, you know, as opposed to having something quicker, but I think the key thing to remember is. everyone is different and everyone's life is different. So you just have to fix it in, you know, however it works for you. Right. But I, I do think, you know, that is one thing that I would, I wouldn't snack every night, but if I do, I will try and go for granola and a yogurt, you know, with some berries or something.

Cause I get the crunch, I get that kind of, you know, um, the sedation, I, you know, you enjoy it. And I think. One really important thing that you mentioned, Harriet, is, is consciously eating. Um, because we often, like you say, munch, munch, munch. And we're like, what did we eat? I don't even, you might even forget what you ate.

So it's really important, I think, to be conscious. Yeah, absolutely. And we've been talking now about food and how food is nutrition for your microbes so that the microbes can help you stay as healthy as possible. But food is much more than that. It's not only fuel. It's culture. It's love. It's joy. It's social.

And these aspects of food. eating are very important for our mental well being as well. So if you go through the day, and you're not realizing that you're having a nice meal, this is you're doing yourself short. So it is really important to eat healthy, but also to pause when you eat and enjoy what you're eating.

Uh, because often, of course, especially with snacking, people eat to get the quick fix of dopamine. Then afterwards, the guilt really negates all that effect. So if you can try to consciously eat something that is enjoy, that you get enjoyment from, uh, and at the same time is not the worst kind of food, uh, like a granola, then, um, you're, you're having, um, what's the expression.

two birds in with one stone. Yeah, you're killing two birds with one stone. Yeah, because the last thing you want to do, like I would religiously every night, I'll have my cup of mint tea and I'll have two squares of dark chocolate. Um, but that's, I, I, that's every night after dinner. That's my little fix. Um, and I don't, I never feel guilty for it because you find with dark chocolate, two squares is plenty.

You're not going to even want that. More. Um, but it's kind of like you're, you are, as you say, you know, you, you don't want to be eating something and then you're beating yourself up over it. 'cause then you get into this whole psychological, you know, catch 22 and you know, that's not benefiting anyone, you know.

Um, can I just ask you about caffeine? And I know, I know UCC are doing an A, B, C, I know you're doing a lot of research at the moment in relation to caffeine. Um, but what are your thoughts in relation to caffeine and how it impacts. Um, on your, just to comment quickly on your, uh, chocolate, I think the dark chocolate is healthy.

A little bit of dark chocolate is, uh, has been shown to be healthy for your, uh, uh, microbiota as well. It contains, of course, the polyphenols, coca beans. So the darker the chocolate, the better. Uh, um, so that's not bad. really the worst either. And you have to allow yourself a little bit of pleasures. Yeah.

In relation to caffeine. So again, it comes back to, um, diet. So not only what we eat, but also what we drink. will impact on our microbiota and it can impact on our microbiota composition, uh, but on its function. So what are they doing? It impacts immediately. Um, in relation to caffeine, I am, uh, uh, a really heavy caffeine, uh, user.

I don't, uh, have breakfast, but, um, around the third cup of coffee at around 10 o'clock, I, uh, I start functioning properly, maybe, uh, which I know is very, very unhealthy. Um, but again, as if it gets me through the day, then, uh, it's not too bad and I'll balance it with some other, other, uh, Better things like fruit intake and fiber intake then, um, so yeah, in, uh, with the APC Microbiome Ireland, uh, they're currently going to conduct a study on the effects of, uh, of caffeine on, uh, the microbiota and on, uh, cognition and, um, um, other, uh, brain functions.

It's not a study that I'm involved in myself, but, uh, my colleagues are, and, um, it would be very interesting. Uh, to see, uh, the outcome of that and that maybe, um, I, I'm gonna take the findings from that. Um, okay, drink a little bit less caffeine, but some of it, it is good, um, for, for sure. Yeah, because I, I, I do know, you know, in menopause, Um, you know, in some cases, too much caffeine, you know, it does impact the bladder, you know, whether it's tea, coffee, or a fizzy drink, it does impact the bladder, and it might make it a little bit more irritated or sensitive, and it can also, you know, I think if you are, you know, feeling anxious, it can definitely maybe make that a little bit more heightened, but I do, I'm, I'm really excited to see those, um, those studies.

Uh, when, when the, when they do come out. Well, it's, it's with everything. A little bit of something like the little bit of the chocolate or a little bit of caffeine is good because it contributes to your varied diet with, and a varied diet is. The best for a varied microbiome, but too much of a good thing isn't good.

And then, of course, caffeine is diuretic. So you will become dehydrated or get the jitters and it can have an effect on. Um, your gut motility as well, uh, so all in moderation, uh, and then it will have some, uh, positive effects and what's APC microbiome and my colleague, John Krein are investigating on coffee versus non coffee drinkers is the positive potential positive effects of caffeine on, uh, your microbiota.

Uh, cognition and gut health and stress, uh, and if these positive impacts are mediated via microbiota changes. Okay. And what about, dare I ask, what about alcohol? What's the impacts of alcohol on the microbiome? Cause I know it's a, I always say, nobody likes me saying it, but when it comes to menopause, alcohol isn't your best friend at this time at all.

Yes. Um, No comment. No, I'm kidding. Uh, again, red wine can have some, uh, uh, has, has, uh, uh, beneficial compounds in it, uh, that have been shown to be positive, uh, for, uh, for your overall health, but yes, alcohol is, uh, in general, not your best friends at any stage. Um, and does it, just in relation, like, and I don't know if you've looked at this at all, but is it a case of, um, you know, does it have, can you see an obvious impact on alcohol, on the gut microbiome or is that anything that's ever been looked at?

Oh, yes. There's, uh, there's studies that they were looking at, uh, the effect of alcohol, uh, on the microbiome, and there's a profound effect. Agreed. Uh, again, the same as, uh, the effects of bad nutrition, uh, the older you're getting, the more pronounced these effects will be. So while you're better able to maybe buffer it when you're younger, which may be down to your microbiota being more diverse and better able to buffer the negative effects.

Uh, this is, uh, as you, as you grow older, uh, you're less able to buffer these effects and, um, Yeah, there is also an increase in alcohol intolerance, which could be mediated via, uh, changes in gastrointestinal function following alcohol intake. So you have, uh, uh, again, increased motility the following day.

Um, and, um, the effects that alcohol has on a microbiota will, um, subsequently also have an effect on, uh, how microbiota impact on host health. Uh, so absolutely. Okay. And most of the time, again, this is very much so, moderation, uh, is key here and um, on social occasions, everyone, uh, enjoys. Uh, a little bit, uh, or most people enjoy a little bit of, uh, of alcohol, but, um, it would be ignorant to say that it wouldn't have negative impacts.

Yeah. Yeah. And I think, I think, um, look, so many women will say to me, and God, I know it myself. I mean, there's no way I could drink the same amount of alcohol that I might've drunk when I was in my twenties and thirties. I just wouldn't tolerate it. You know, my husband says I'm a very cheap date. You know, I literally.

You know, it lasts, it lasts a red wine. And I'm like, you know, you, you know, it just, I just know now my limits are, um, have reduced substantially. And, you know, so I, I wouldn't drink much alcohol, um, at all now, but I also know for many women in menopause, uh, they will, they will realize, or they'll know that alcohol exasperates many of the symptoms, you know, from brain fog to sleep issues to anxiety.

Yeah, the anxiety is a huge one because you might be fine the night you're having your few drinks, but the next day you, the next day you suffer, you know, and it just becomes, you know, it just, it's not like you wake up the next day thinking, Oh God, this is great. I have loads of energy. I'm going to go for a run or whatever.

That doesn't happen. It is really, um. decreasing the energy. Uh, it's hard then to, uh, have enough energy to be running around with, uh, with kids. Yeah. And life, right? Yes. And life. Yeah. And it's not a, it's not a green card for, uh, for when you're younger now to be able to drink as much as you, you can. Cause then when people are younger, uh, increased amounts of alcohol have other Detrimental effects that may not be able to, uh, be seen so early on, um, like on, uh, on the brain as well.

So it's not, uh, um, but again, a little bit in moderation, we are all entitled to a little bit of enjoyment. Yeah. I think, unfortunately, look, we've such a, we have such a very complex, complicated relationship with alcohol, um, the world over, but I think very much so in Ireland. Um, and I think particularly. In COVID, we've really seen, you know, um, that relationship kind of, um, just being leaned on more, I guess, but anyway, yeah, we'll, yeah.

Especially in COVID, it's, um, it's been extremely hard for everyone and everyone has been faced with their own, uh, uh, challenges. And. Everyone wants it to be nicer for themselves, but unfortunately over the long run, uh, having too much chocolates or having too much greasy food or having too much alcohol, it has a negative impact.

And while it gives that initial, oh, I deserve this, this dopamine hit, I, I want to, uh, enjoy this, uh, or, uh, Uh, it's nice for a little while, but then, um, now we're faced with, uh, okay, I'm a little bit in a bad habit now, maybe, maybe how am I going to break this bad habit circle? So we're learning more and more about the microbiota and hopefully, um, Uh, about the interactions of the microbiota with these, uh, behaviors, uh, with our eating behavior and with our cravings, uh, so that if we better understand how our microbiota interacts, uh, and maybe cause or, uh, consequences of these behaviors that we can, uh, I give real solutions for, uh, for, for these issues for to give real solutions for the physical and emotional exhaustive.

That's what we need. Do you, do you think we're going to get to a place where I know I've, uh, I've read about this and I've seen it discussed and I know it happens in some cases, but do you think we are going to get to a place at some stage where bowel sampling, um, is, you know, is going to be a standard or is going to be something that's more common?

Um, Yes, I do believe in that. I mean, one of the technological advances in microbiota research is that we're much better able to analyze large amounts of data sets. And at the start of our conversation, we were talking about how many microbes we all have. And each and one of us has a very unique microbiota.

composition as unique as your own fingerprints and not one microbe that would be the same. So that's why I also say it's more, um, uh, what are it? It's not who is there, but what are they doing? And with the technological advances over the last decade, we're much better able to analyze, um, uh, faster. which microbes are there and what their functional potential is.

And, um, as these technologies become cheaper and cheaper, uh, they'll be able to be used in diagnostic purposes. So as diagnostic tools. So I do see that in the future, you will be able to, uh, give your stool sample and, uh, they'll be able to analyze, okay, which microbes do you have? And maybe more importantly, which Are you lacking?

Yeah. And then based on that, uh, be able to give you an advice, change your diet or take this particular strain. Uh, and, uh, you maybe have a positive impact on this, on your metabolic and mental health. And these, some of these technologies are already being used. there and are being offered. I mean, there are, uh, companies out there that say you can send us your stool just as you can get your, uh, genetic, uh, material sent for ancestry.

The determinations, there are companies that are saying, send us your stool and we can give you, uh, a dietary advice. Um, if, if people are interested, then they can, uh, sure do this. But again, I want to highlight we know a lot more about a microbiota, but we're still very, very early on as well. And we're learning more about that.

It is, um, the function of how the microbes are interacting with each other, the overall, um, function of how the village, the community of microbes operate. Uh, that's important. And also how the microbes interact with our diet. I mean, we have probiotics, which are the life Bacteria, we have prebiotics, which could be the food for the microbiota or increasing the growth of beneficial microbiota.

And we also have symbiotics. So if you would take a probiotic strain, but you don't give the food that it thrives on. the prebiotic, then would it actually do what it needs to, what it needs to do in order to have the positive impact. And postbiotics, which are the metabolites that they're making. So the field is expanding at an enormous rate.

And, uh, while we're in the last decade, have learned a lot more about the importance of microbiota in our metabolic and mental health, we still don't know everything and there's much more to learn. So. A little bit of caution is also advised. Yeah, yeah. I think that's wise, wise words. It's vast, isn't it? Um, Harriet, what would be your top tips to give to anyone listening in relation to if they want to, you know, they really want, and I know we've probably talked about it all, but just, you know, the top, you know, things you would say to, you know, being conscious of and looking after your, your gut health.

Well, um, because we know now that microbes, And our gut might be able to do so much more for us than just digest our food. Um, we know that they have a profound impact on our metabolic health and that they can shape brain and behavior so that they can impact on our metabolic health and our mental health as well.

So they do a lot to mind us. So we need to do a lot to mind them. And the key advice, and we've said it a co a couple of times already, is diet. Hmm. Um, when you feed yourself, uh, you're not only feeding you, you're feeding all the trillions of microbes that live inside of you. So food is not only, uh, um, or you need to, when you eat, you need to have the right few for yourself, but also for your, for your microbes.

And this is a diverse. diet, uh, how nature intended it. So raw foods, um, vegetables don't always have to be overcooked. Uh, you know, raw, um, uh, vegetables or red peppers or green leafy foods, uh, are very good and increase your fiber intake is, uh, a second one. So really focused, focused on diet, uh, a variety of food, how nature intended it.

And exercise, um, exercise also has a really profound impact on, uh, your metabolic and mental health and on your microbes. So again, it is that, that interaction. Brilliant. Brilliant. That's, that's, that's super. And it, it kind of, it's funny, I, I keep saying every, every conversation I'm having at the moment over the last couple of months.

Exercise. I know food always comes up, but so does exercise. It's just, you know, isn't it? It's just such an important aspect of looking after our health at any stage. And don't view it maybe as something, another thing that I have to do. Just try to be conscious. And, uh, about the things that you related do, uh, that will help to increase your overall wellbeing.

Like, um, we talked about it as well, haven't eaten without having realized that you've eaten. Uh, food is you nutrition for yourself and for your microbes, but it is so much more than that. It is enjoyment as well. And, and when you are consciously, uh, enjoying what you're eating, uh, that will also have a, a much better effect on.

Both how you're feeling, uh, mentally, uh, how you're able to balance your levels of stress and ultimately that will, um, put you in a better position to, uh, have, um, a balanced metabolic health as well. Brilliant, great. Well, Harriet, thanks so much for chatting to me today. And I'll be watching with a very close eye all the ongoing research.

And I think it's really, it's just fantastic to see that UCC down in Cork is doing so well. kind of leading the way in this, in the world, which is just fantastic to you and to everyone involved. So, uh, well done. And, um, um, we'll be looking forward to, to hearing more from you over, um, coming, coming months and years.